Pandora builds ideas

[keget]

So we have no competitive Pandora players in our area.  What are some of the competitive builds out there.  You can pick any strategy and schemes you want for this question.

Thanks

[Joel]

pandora herself requires her upgrades, but there are 2 different competitive loadouts based on her limited upgrades.  I favour:

Pandora (box opens, fears given form) with a 3rd upgrade sometimes added if points or schemes suggest it.  Usually the 3rd would be aether connection or wings of darkness - its a question of where I think I'll be using my stones during the game.

primodial magic

doppleganger

simply put, there is yet to be a compelling competitive reason to not auto-include both of these models in every pandora list.  following these 12 stones being spent, you simply need to get to 8 activations really.  It helps to have one or two of them be a beater so that Pandora herself doesn't have to do all the heavy lifting, but these don't need to be top-end hitters.  7-8ss models can do just fine.  then pad out with scheme runners - anything fast will do really.

 

hitters to choose from that all work well:

teddy

coppelius

mature nephilim

illuminated

 

scheme runners:

sorrows

insidious madness

terror tots

 

If you are finding that you want more tricks in your list, then you need to look at adding support models in place of the hitters - but this is very much a next step in list design.  some good support models, that have different roles, but all interesting ones are:

 

Lust

Widow Weaver

Barbaros

 

ta,

Joel

[MetaphoricDragn]

The Second Load out would be

Pandora
-Voices
-On Wings of Darkness
-Depression

This build dishs out paralyzes instead of damage, making it more control oriented.  

[keget]

So here is a list with roles filled in...

50 SS Neverborn Crew
Pandora
- On Wings Of Darkness (1) or Aether Connection based on if neutralize is in pool
- The Box Opens (2)
- Fears Given Form (1)

Job - get in their face and kill and lock down, control activation with incite

Primordial Magic (2)

Job - Extra card, extra activation, maybe be a marker, maybe make thing insignificant

 
Mature Nephilim (11)
- A Thousand Faces (1)  this becomes Mimic Blessing or Retributions eye if anti armor needed

Job - Kill

Doppleganger (7)

Job - Win initiative, copy big weapon, or drop scheme

The Illuminated (7)

Job - Second beater

Insidious Madness (5) X 2

Job - Scheme runner, and help Pandora live

The Illuminated (7) or Insidious Madness (5) to taste

Cash would be 5 or 7 based on last choice

Thoughts and thanks.

[Joel]

That list would be a good place to start

[keget]

What are people thoughts on the Sorrows?  I always seem to have a hard time taking one when I could take an IM.  Am I just missing it?

[hydranixx]

They're tough to use, but they're worth their cost if you use them well. You can always choose to take both Sorrows and Madnesses. They're not a cheap combo but they happen to work rather nicely together if Pandora's about.

Yes, they are extremely flimsy so they can and will die to most things if you expose them prematurely. However, they add lots of surplus damage to Pandora's WP attacks if you bring them in at the right time.

They're also surprisingly good with the current 2016 scheme pool for securing VP. With their 8" Misery Loves Company for only 1 AP, they're filthy with Public Demo, and decent picks for many of the other interacty schemes like Exhaust or Headhunter. And if you do have the titanium balls required to take Occupy their Turf, Sorrows have the ability to leapfrog a good 18" or so up the board in one turn to get it fairly reliably.

[Joel]

12 hours ago, hydranixx said:

They're tough to use, but they're worth their cost if you use them well. You can always choose to take both Sorrows and Madnesses. They're not a cheap combo but they happen to work rather nicely together if Pandora's about.

Yes, they are extremely flimsy so they can and will die to most things if you expose them prematurely. However, they add lots of surplus damage to Pandora's WP attacks if you bring them in at the right time.

They're also surprisingly good with the current 2016 scheme pool for securing VP. With their 8" Misery Loves Company for only 1 AP, they're filthy with Public Demo, and decent picks for many of the other interacty schemes like Exhaust or Headhunter. And if you do have the titanium balls required to take Occupy their Turf, Sorrows have the ability to leapfrog a good 18" or so up the board in one turn to get it fairly reliably.

to echo and add: sorrows are very, very good in the current gaining grounds schemes.  To add to the schemes they are good at - you can basically list all but 4 schemes (things like undercover entourage) in which they have no role.  They are so good they have become a near-default include with all neverborn masters for me.

[keget]

I can see how sorrow can be good at a lot a schemes, but for the same price you have the IM who seems like they would be just as good at the same schemes.  Please enlighten me to why/when a sorrow is better at the schemes?  Or is it that they are just as good as the IM, and bring more to Pandora, but Joel you talk about taking them with other masters too, so I am totally missing it.

[Xekros]

I don't have the cards in front of me, but the place from the Sorrow's ability is more versatile than the walk of the IM. Additionally, they have an extra wound, so they're that tiny bit harder to kill. I'd say IM would be better if you're looking to simply be at a place and specifically not near other models, otherwise the Sorrows will work better.

 

Then again, I do main Pandora, so that undoubtedly skews my opinion somewhat.

[goth]

3 hours ago, keget said:

I can see how sorrow can be good at a lot a schemes, but for the same price you have the IM who seems like they would be just as good at the same schemes.  Please enlighten me to why/when a sorrow is better at the schemes?  Or is it that they are just as good as the IM, and bring more to Pandora, but Joel you talk about taking them with other masters too, so I am totally missing it.

Everything being situational and toolboxy, for example, you can have two sorrows and Exhaust Their Forces or Catch and Release (or even mark for death) to jump them up 8 or more inches then use their AP to run schemes since they are really just moveable auras that suck at using their AP efficiently (Depression upgrade is worth taking for this reason, usually) and if you have Frame for Murder on a Sorrow that jumps in for early Catch and Release points or focuses a Quick Murder target early, well then great.  Remember that Wicked Dolls also have the 8" place, just not to friendlies and not within the synergies of a pandora crew

[keget]

So Goth...the answer is Sorrows just do it a little bit better than an IM, as Sorrows could go a little bit more than 8 inched and a IM could walk 7in?  But they are more likely to die than an IM.

[hydranixx]

3 hours ago, Torsul said:

I fail to see any reason to pick sorrows over tots, IM or hounds as scemers with anyone but Pandora :-k

Summarizes: IM are more independent from other models in the crew. They require less flips and less hand cards and while adding both for the opponent. You trade DMG against control compared to the sorrows.

Sorrows don't get struck in combat as easily as the others while they're completing their schemes. That's worth a lot more than it seems at first. They always have the option to jump up to 8" away without incurring disengagement strikes. This is huge with things like Exhaust their Forces or Hunting Party - you can dash away to take it off while your hound/tot/madness would otherwise have to find a way to kill themselves, concede a point or have to take one or more disengaging strike duels to escape.

As far as hand control goes, Sorrows (2) Doldrums spell alone has more control and threat in it than all 3 models you mention. If you're winning the duel with that, you can bet they're cheating. Yes, it does cost 2 Ap, but if you've already gotten the VP from the schemes your Sorrows were hired for, they still have some purposes, whereas most scheme runners contribute nothing once the schemes they're there for are finished.

[Joel]

18 minutes ago, Torsul said:

Well if it's only the 'immunity' against disengaging strikes I don't think that elevates their shortcomings :-k

Doldrums isn't any control. It's a ca5 2AP action. Just 50/50 your opponent hast to cheat before you at first in the most cases. And if he doesn't have tochances are high it costs both of you a high-card. I'ts a great possibility, but totally different from discarding before you can cheat wp and psychosis.

I'm not here to try and convince you.  The sorrow and the madness are very different models - they have different roles in a crew, but one is not strictly better or worse than the other.  Just don't ask a fish to climb a tree.

For example, assume you need your chosen model to drop a scheme marker 10" from the current location of your sorrow or madness.  A madness cannot do this, a sorrow can.

a madness with its high Df, Wk and possible discard screams "I'm a good independent scheme runner - it's not worth your time coming after me"

a sorrow, by comparison says "look at my low stats but really, really annoying misery aura - im going to be in your face and if you don't kill me it's going to be bad for you"

very different approaches and both useful ways of forcing the use of opposing AP.  However, choosing the right tool to suit the job, and to work in your preferred style is important.

Sorrows ARE extremely effective at scoring VP from the gg2016 schemes - from my extensive experience of them this year, I'd rate them the best minion in neverborn for doing this. 

Madnesses are one of the best scheme runners available to any faction, but fast long-range scheme running isn't as big a feature of gg2016 than it was under book schemes. 

I would agree that on paper, a madness is a "better" model, but I look at these models through the prism of scoring VP - and from that point of view, the sorrow currently rules the roost IMO.

 

joel

[Joel]

4 hours ago, Torsul said:

I see your point but have a rather different experiences and as such would rate them at at otherend of the scale.

I think we can agree to disagree =D speaks for a game if there isn't consent in rating models.

It does indeed.  

[keget]

So when I and a friend read fugue state and we ready how it is described in pull my finger we can't get the 2 to agree.    I will ignore pull my finger for now and just focus on the card.  It says, "Monotony: Enemy models within 8 which declare an interact action must succeed on a TV 15 WP duel after resolving the action or suffer 1 damage"  So if they fail the Wp duel they can still make the interact action, they just take 1 damage (and 1 for each misery aura as well for failed Wp duel).  This is way worse than what pmf says which is "Fugue State - This upgrade focuses on controlling the opponent's ability to score. It provides an aura that forces a TN15 Wp duel before enemy interact actions may be taken"  Is PMF just really wrong or am I missing something?

 

Thanks,

Steven

[tuktuken]

You are not missing a thing
I belive that description on PMF is a shorthand. Fugue State let you mess with interacts by Nullify. Monotony aura is nice additon, but the whole power of action, is in that attack, I believe (however pinging scheme runner for 3 dmg if you have a Sorrow nearby is quite nice).

[keget]

In this case I would say PMF is just wrong, not using shorthand.  

[-Loki-]

I like Pull My Finger to give me a brief rundown of something, but I never use it to inform my decisions. The best things about Malifaux is it's very well balanced. People might say something is terrible but you make it work. If that's the case, just keep making it work and ignore the people telling you you're doing it wrong. Pandora has serious competition for her upgrades, but that doesn't mean you have to just run what the internet says is the best.