Dreamer

[tox77]

Hi, I play ten thunders. How can I deal with summoning Dreamer with Emissary? I can do nothing with him since he summon up to 5 additional models per turn.

[EnternalVoid]

If Dreamer+emissary is summoning 5 models per turn then your opponent either has the luck of the devil or they are all lowbies models.  For Dreamer to summon anything besides Daydreams he needs Masks, either for Alps or his other summons.  He can sac a Daydream to cover this for a turn but it means he is either blowing 2ss or using an AP to summon a new one.  For the Emissary to be summoning changlings he needs scheme markers and 7+ of Mask.  The Emissary is an enforcer so no option of using SS.  Now they could take Tannen to use his ability to get the +2 to any masks they flip or cheat but it is a (0) so he is going to have to make sure he has a 7+ to get that off plus it means any Tomes he wants to use for the Dreamer are at -2 unless he plays with positioning.

If he goes just with the Emissary and the summoning upgrade he has already spent 15ss out of 50ss, so 30% of his crew.  With Daydreams and Tannen he might well be spending half his SS on just setting up his summoning engine.  This means his crew might well be missing a lot of meat at the beginning and he needs to start summoning models in to shore up his lines.

Will start off the next part by saying I rarely like taking a list to counter a certain possible list as I rarely will know exactly what my opponent is taking in advance.  I like taking flexible options that can help against most of the faction.  So my first thought, which is an option I always consider when someone declares Neverborn, is taking a katanaka sniper.  If you can set it in a place where it can get a shot first turn it will help your options on limiting the engine.  Shooting Dreamer is not always the best option but if you pick off Tannen or even one of the Daydreams turn 1 it will hinder him down the road.  If he takes two daydreams and you kill one first turn, there is a good chance he is going to have to summon one with the dreamer first turn to set up turn 2.  If he is forces to drop a high card to try and save the daydream from your sniper shot turn 1, that is likely one less dangerous nightmare being summoned.  Also if the dreamer player is not careful with his summons the sniper could possible take out one of his recent summons before it has time to heal enough.

Also Cruise missile lists have a viability here as if planning to summon, Dreamer often is card deprived turn 1.  If forced to use cards on defense odds are he is not summoning much of anything that turn.  Cruise missile also helps in that Dreamer is not a very tough model himself, he survives on SS and his trigger to pass the hit.  If he is playing a true summoning engine he will not have a ton of nightmares to soak a beating for him at first, and even if he does summon some they will be at lower Wd count so passing the hits off might kill them.  If a dreamer sees a potential cruise missile option it will make him really rethink his options.  With a cruise missile you can also aim for the Emissary or another key model if it exposes itself to tear down the rest of his list and make his summoning all reactive in nature to try and keep in the game.  If you can control the momentum of the game you can try and dictate what your opponent has to do.

[Mxbedlam]

I feel like maybe Misaki might be a decent drop vs Neverborn in a sort of alpha strike the alpha strike sort of way? Most of their models don't stand up to early pressure. Especially vs Dreamer where he needs cards in hand, early Misaki assassinates could eat his hand up very quickly

 

[InvokeChaos]

Asami is a decent pick, but like EternalVoid said, if he's summoning that many models, he has the hand of god or they are all daydreams or something.

Aggression is the key here. You can't turtle up. Insidious Madness and Daydreams have stacking WP shenanigans, as does Widow Weaver, another common take. Lilitu can lure people out of position, so self-reliant models aren't bad. Ca actions are good. Beware stitched together. If you can't get past their hard to kill, gauranteed (i know black jokers can always screw things but otherwise) it may be better to leave them alone so they don't get reactivate.

Snipers are a good thing. Snipers and Shen Long are even better. Beware of sniper placement due to the aforementioned Lilitu. Teddy is a thing with tannen in the picture, but fermented river style on Shen Long has him rip through teddies like tissue paper.

If you feel you can successfully Alpha, do so. Blasts SUCK for dreamer. Like suck suck suck suck.  So if you can get Misaki in turn 1 before he's moved and he has smaller targets, roll some thunder on him and his cronies. She's high WP and accurate. Most of the nightmares are not too tanky and they want to activate within 6" of dreamer for heals, so while they won't be super bunched, they won't be spread out either.

[Yvarre]

I really like McCabe vs. the Dreamer.  He can push reactivating minions in with a saber for expendable Alpha strikes.  Austringers can pick off newly summoned nightmares as well as daydreams, and dogs help get some activation control as well as early schemes.  As a Dreamer crew can be pretty sparse before the summons and it's ending up spending so many resources to bring in summons that just get put down, the AP advantage of using multiple activations to take down the summons is mitigated, especially with the doggies running schemes that dead summons might be needed to do in the Dreamer crew.

I actually haven't played against the emissary yet, but there are 8 cards out of 54 that it can use to get its summons off, one of which is the RJ.  With a hand of 6 and a flip for each cast, that gives you eight cards to hit a mid to high mask, presumably without rush of magic from PM because the Dreamer needs his daydreams to reliably get his own masks.  The odds aren't great here, maybe something like a 14.81% chance of hitting one good mask to summon a mimic.  Beyond being an extra activation and a mimic, how good are Changelings anyways?  As a rule, I do like to kill emissaries on sight, being like non-soulstone-using mini-masters and all.  Saber helps here too, though its damage spread isn't super.

[Adran]

On 25/09/2016 at 8:02 PM, tox77 said:

Hi, I play ten thunders. How can I deal with summoning Dreamer with Emissary? I can do nothing with him since he summon up to 5 additional models per turn.

Samurai or Futhasu will clear all 5 of those models in 1 activation since he has no hand left and they have very low wounds. 

Other forms of area damage also work, although they might not be close enough for blasts to get them all. Important things to rememebr for the dreamer to summon 3 things each turn, that will use all of his AP (including his 0) every turn (+ some good cards). I'm sure your master can use its AP (and similar cards used to summoning) to remove what the dreamer summoned (or equvilent) each turn. 

In short don't panic. Summoning looks scary, and it can get out of hand if you let it., but its often  actually not bad if you don't panic. 

[-Loki-]

Something else to remember - if he's got that amazing a hand that he's summing that many weakened, Slow models, he's not flipping or cheating in those great cards in duels or damage until he cycles his deck. This should give you a bit of an edge in dealing with those summons.

[InvokeChaos]

Another thing to consider, would be the list you faced, @tox77

I have a dreamer player in my meta that will typically out activate and then drop all his summons at the end of the turn. 

He doesn't run the emissary, but still was dropping 2-3 models a round. Assuming he didn't have to burn his control hand earlier.

There's a pro and con to dreamer going last in that type of list. So if you happen to have whatever else he was running, that would help identify specific strategies to consider.

[EnternalVoid]

9 hours ago, InvokeChaos said:

Another thing to consider, would be the list you faced, @tox77

I have a dreamer player in my meta that will typically out activate and then drop all his summons at the end of the turn.

This is closer to what my Dreamer tends to look like when I go summoner.  I tend to have low SS models fill out my ranks with maybe one expensive model.  I like it as it lets me be flexible depending on my hand and opponent.  If I want I summon last, if I need something out early I go early, and if I think I can hold off for 3-4 activations I might go middle of the turn after getting an idea on what my opponent is up too.

Of course that means my list is weak to Blast as I have enough bodies it is hard to spread out entirely, and good first turn damage like a pair of well tuned snipers can turn out the pressure to force me to drop cards. 

[Rabbitknight]

Don't forget that the Dreamer has to "call his shot" before he summons. You have to declare the model you want to summon, set the TN, then flip. If he's just flipping and summoning whatever matches the flip, that's incorrect and can lead to the perception that summoners are broken.