Help with Molly idea

[benjoewoo]

TL;DR--read the bold stuff. Key crew components are Molly with horror/spirit upgrade and Take Back the Night, Philip & the Nanny, and Mortimer with Corpse Bloat.

Thought some feedback could help my development. I've put Seamus up for Molly at the moment, specifically horror Molly. I know spirit Molly is likely better at this point from a general point of view, and I've said as much, but I want to experiment with horror Molly because she's fun, thematic, and I think there may be some tricks with her that spirits don't have as great of access to.

I ran this list the other day against a summoner dreamer crew in interference with flank deployment. Schemes were convict labor, leave your mark, hunting party, mark for death, and frame for murder. 

I went with convict labor and leave your mark. My opponent went with frame for murder on widow weaver and hunting party.

 

I ran:

Molly with Forgotten Life, Terrible Knowledge--starts with 7 SS in this set up

Grave Spirit

Philip & the Nanny with Take Back the Night (should have put this on Molly)

Mortimer with Corpse Bloat and Transfusion

Crooligan

2x Night Terrors

Guild Autopsy

Flesh Construct

 

You'll probably notice this is a re-activate list. I didn't to commit too much to it, as I needed night terrors for the strategy, but the threat of re-activate on two of my hired models for turn 1 with the ability to summon more autopsies would mean the threat is greater in later turns if I didn't have the high cards for punk zombies/drowned. I don't own the students yet, so I don't have any other choices for summons beyond punks, drowned, and crooligans essentially. 

I also own all the spirits, so it's not that horrors is more convenient for me to go--I'm going horrors because it seems more fun, and more appropriate for this kind of play style I'm going for.

If the strategy was something other than interference, I'd switch out the night terrors for a dead doxy or strategy appropriate model--flesh construct and guild autopsy might be changed out as well, turning the list into a non-re-activate one. Probably a dead doxy, but I could very well have gone for a second crooligan and dropped transfusion for tear--while I generally don't like paying 3SS for the upgrade just for two 0s, horror Molly can really make use of Terrible Knowledge's 0 by giving an AP to someone and following up with a horror pulse, provided I'm within range. 

I won't give a full battle report, as this thread is for commentary on the list for general purposes, but I will describe the basic workings for feedback on what could be trimmed out to make it more adaptable to different situations.

After hearing about Joe's Kirai, listening to the Schemes and Stones spotlight on Molly, and deciding I wanted to get into a new master, specifically horror Molly, I decided I wanted to create a crew concept that potentially mitigates Molly's major weakness: card control. Molly eats cards and SS for her Masterful Dead ability and summoning. As to the ability, I feel it's good, but a trap without a card draw engine. Molly has very few defenses, and what she has is fairly minimal compared to other resser masters, when considering that she has no healing mechanic. 

The set up doesn't really care if it deploys first or not, though deploying second is generally better, as it's nice to be able to deploy crooligan within LoS and 12" of Mortimer, but not within range of enemy models turn 1. Crooligan will usually be vulnerable for the first couple activations, so avoiding that is better, but shouldn't be impossible if there is a good amount of terrain available.

Turn 1 activations went as such and hopefully follow as such in other situations, though I think there's some room for improvement generally speaking, and there may have been a different order depending on the models I was using.

1. Activate Philip, who drops a marker and eats it for 2 cards, discarding 1. 6 card hand now.

2. Activate Mortimer who starts by transfusions all the poison from guild autopsy to flesh construct. He then double shoots crooligan with fling rot (relent, 0 damage), moving everyone but the night terrors, grave spirit, and himself--you can maintain LoS by keeping all the undead models exactly at the edge of an 18" line, with grave spirit at one end so that Philip is in the back but can see over the grave spirit to see the crooligan. Exact movement order will change depending on who you want to move the furthest, as everyone 

In my particular game, because it was flank deployment, crooligan's position was fairly ideal, being far out of range for anything Dreamer had, and being fairly close to the center line when within 12" of deployment. I first pushed the flesh construct, as he was in the center of my line facing crooligan, and has the greatest movement need. Next was guild autopsy to provide ranged support as needed or take hits. Molly's next, to get decent movement still but be behind a couple models. Philip is last, because he plays a 0 combat role--he's the card draw engine and anti-scheme marker model as needed. Additionally, Philip's Pram ability means that he ensures maximum movement as the last model to move each time. 

In my particular game, because a terrain piece blocked off a good 3" of space on the 18" edge I started on, my models formed pretty much a straight line by the time the second fling rot went off. This was not ideal, as a slightly greater spread between my models would have allowed the later models to move farther, but because Dreamer's crew was favoring the opposite facing 18" edge, this edge kept me farther away and would allow me to do more Turn 1 set up in peace. If I had more room, I would have gotten a little more movement. As a result, I got 2AP of movement for Flesh construct, with varying lesser amounts for the rest of my models. 

3. Activate night terror, throw up -Ca ability and pass.

4. Activate other night terror, move to potentially contest a quadrant, throw up -Ca ability

5. Activate Guild Autopsy, move behind appropriate cover and drop marker within range of Philip to eat or have it count towards convict labor

6. Activate flesh construct have him walk and drop a scheme marker for convict labor or bring food for Philip

7. Activate grave spirit, to move and push to Molly, giving her armor and set up for moving appropriately Turn 2.

8. Activate Crooligan, who moves to set up for following turn--in my game crooligan actually attacked a stitched that moved too close, but if there were no enemy models, I would have kept it near me to drop another marker for convict Turn 2 before running out for leave your mark.

9. Activate Molly, who (0s) to have Philip eat a marker for 2 cards, discarding 1. 7 card hand now. Depending on enemy set up, either summon punks for fighting or summon drowned to get out more markers and defensive corpses for the eventual corpse bloat. In my game, because there was a stitched that ran up too close, I summoned a guild autopsy and punk zombie with 1 Wd each while summoning a drowned in the corner to drop a scheme marker and otherwise useless corpse. This stitched's movement wasn't ideal for Dreamer, as I was able to essentially get a free punk zombie and guild autopsy with no risks of retaliation, especially with embalmed putting Autopsy at 2wds immediately and punk having a chance to get first activation Turn 2, but I had planned on just summoning drowned for extra markers for the rest of the game to keep Philp happy or ensure I got convict labor.

From here, I basically had my new corner controlled fairly well, with two ranged models to soften targets before flesh construct charge with Molly summoning. Mortimer provided Molly and other models movement by flinging rot again from relative safety. Philip always had 2 markers to eat, between my autopsies and crooligan dropping markers, later my initial punk zombie summon who couldn't make it to the other battles after killing the stitched I mentioned. 

I should have put Take Back the Night on Molly, as she was always the one closer to battle for her 6" black blood bubble, and Philip never moved from his spot after Turn 1. Philip only triggered my Take Back the Night twice, from my punk zombie killing the stitched and later an flesh construct getting a kill nearby that I mistook as a horror--neither of us caught it until after the game. Molly would have triggered it more often.

List Analysis

By the end of Turn 1, I had drawn 2 cards effectively to make a 7 card hand, but I had seen 10 cards. In Turn 2, which was the big turn, I had done the same via activation control through Molly summons and my still living summons denying AP via killing non-activated models, e.g. the stitched. 

As summoner Dreamer needs high crows or high masks to summon/summon in without slow, I knew that Dreamer's crew couldn't really cheat without sacrificing summoning or having a better than average hand. Flesh construct, guild autopsies, and later punk zombie summons into constant slice and dices took care of those cards, allowing me to trigger a triple re-activate with grave spirit discard for extra scheme markers to again ensure convict labor points and food for Philip at little cost to myself. Crooligan took care of leave your mark between Molly 0 and From the Shadows. 

The primary advantage of this list seems to be the ability to mitigate the need for lucky draws or stoning for cards. Philip's ability to give access to 10 cards per turn is good, and the loss of henchmen AP for his SS is mitigated with Mortimer creating so much AP via Fling Rot. I spent 17SS on two essentially non-fighting henchmen, excluding any corpse bloat opportunities, but they created hand advantage and movement AP to make up.

The secondary advantage of this list is that it can deal with Terrifying models and anti-pulse. Black Blood plus slice and dice does great non-targeting damage against Terrifying models, denying the SS spent on getting terrifying. It creates a great ability to avoid needing to cheat two attacks vs. cheating one pulse flip. Against anti-pulse, e.g. Ramos and Freikorps models, Punk Zombies become are good for being above average and efficient beaters, at least until I buy the University box and have student of steel as a pocket option. 

Am I more AP and SS efficient than what I spent? Not enough experience to really tell, but I'm efficient enough that dropping a marker and walking with all the moved models is no longer extremely inefficient. Flank deployment is the best deployment for this set up--fling rot carries the least risk here, and puts me so close to the center line convict labor becomes almost auto take. Worst Case, Molly summons extra drowned to ensure the scheme while Philip becomes less efficient by forcing other models to drop markers--hence my inclination to using a re-activate list. But, I can say I make up a lot of the activation control I lose from hiring two expensive henchmen. They also provide great potential support.

Mortimer provides the AP efficiency to make up for 17SS in mostly non-fighting models and opportunity cost. Obviously summoner dreamer is not the greatest person for corpse bloat, as I relied mostly on my own models dying for it, but it is a generalist measure so that Mortimer can do something meaningful when the opportunity rises--blowing up corpses presents little risk to Mortimer, as he doesn't need to worry about horror checks and dueling opposing models--plus a 9 is fairly easy to come by with this set up. Corpse bloat leaves the table if I know I'm going against an anti-pulse crew. Chatty also negates certain scheme choices.

Philip provides the card draw, and presents a scheme denial model. Because of the draw, I found myself needing summoning SS much less, and that would allow Philip some room in eating SS for the crow to eat multiple scheme markers with his (0). Since my opponent didn't take scheme maker oriented schemes himself, I didn't need this, but Philip is a great scheme denial piece, both for markers and a potential chatty aura if Mortimer can't cover everyone. Plus creating more corpses means corpse bloat gets better.

The card draw engine greatly relieves the stress on spending SS on each summon. In my game, I spent two stones between Turns 1 and 2 to summon models I needed--I drew the crows for the rest or got the flip. My options of summoning a 4 (autopsy), 6 (drowned), or 7 (punk zombie) costed horrors means I need an 8, 10, or 11 crow to summon. By being able to see 10 or more cards a turn, at least 7 of which I get to keep, I generally see two high enough crows to get them off. Worst case, I use Molly's other abilities--this assumes I didn't already want to. This ultimately means I can use stones for initiative flips, pre-turn card cycling, Philip, etc. Pre-turn card cycling on Molly is huge in this list, as it greatly increases my deck knowledge once Philip starts drawing cards. 

One thing I'm going to try in the future is put in Big Jake over two night terrors. He counts as two minions, and costs the same once factoring the merc cost, plus his fate manipulation only increases the draw engine's efficiency. He would probably only come in for interference/reconnoiter, but it's possible he might come out for others, depending on how comfortable I get with this set up and if it seems viable as a general starting point vs. more traditional Molly builds.

While I put up the whole list above, the key models and upgrades I used were Molly with Forgotten Life, Take Back the Night (on her in the future), Philip, Mortimer with Corpse Bloat, and 4SS reserved to have 7SS. Everything else is mostly salt to taste for the situation. BUT, see next paragraph for the exceptions on Mortimer and 4SS reservation.

The 4SS reservation, and to some extent Mortimer, is subject to change depending on the set up. For example, if I had to do reckoning/headhunter, I would likely be satisfied with 5-6SS so that I could basically copy Stryder's Nico set up with Dead Rider, RN, and Bete with at least 2x Unnerving and 2x Belles. In such a case, I'd probably drop Mortimer to get the beefy fighters and keep Philip there, giving up the AP efficiency factor in exchange for card draw. Molly might take Tear so that she could grant extra AP with (0) and attempt to give re-activate/horror pulse as appropriate (if I take Terrible Knowledge). 

I've only tried to come up with a reason for change for headhunter and reckoning, as those are common strategies with a mentality mentality that can more or less transfer to Collect the Bounty. Turf War, Extraction, Guard the Stash, and Stake a Claim would likely use similar lists to the above, substituting Night Terrors for other appropriate choices, likely a Dead Doxy to maximize Philip's efficiency.

Help me section starts here:

This list trades Molly's card hungry state for a new weakness: a weak initial fighting force (all strategies except reckoning, headhunter, and collect the bounty) with minimal ability to hire enforcers, or AP inefficient card draw engine (the aforementioned 3).

This is where I want to see how I can shore up the two above weaknesses as best as I can. Wyrd balances the game, so I'm not expecting to fully get around it, because that would mean the game is broken and/or needs some fixing, but I want to hear more about why this list cannot work or might only work in casual play so that I can decide if going the traditional route is better suited. After hearing about Joe's performance, I'm wondering what he does, and more importantly for this topic, what I can do, to make this work, though I'm not expecting to win a major tournament--I've mentioned the weaknesses, so I know conceptually what hurts, and I'm hoping for advice and commentary on how to mitigate the worst of the hurts, e.g. Hans shooting off my key upgrades or (gasp), Seamus coming for his dear Molly. 

Outside of reckoning, headhunter, and collect the bounty, the list has 21SS reserved for two henchmen, horror upgrade, take back the night, and corpse bloat. Unless I know I'm playing against Ramos or mostly freikorps crew, e.g. Von Schill, corpse bloat stays in. So, models like Yin are tough for me to hire because they cut into either my SS pool or mean I have to give up the Re-activate tool to gain AP efficiency and force my opponent to play a 4 card hand.

In those three kill oriented strategies, the card engine is important enough to give up AP efficiency for two reasons: (1) I need to be able to fight with better than average cards since I'm running high cost enforcers with 6 Ml for the most part; and (2) I won't have activation control barring a larger than normal number of summons survive until the next turn, so I feel I need Philip's flexibility in drawing me cards, denying opponent scheme marker schemes, and running my own schemes, since the rest of the crew is pretty much committed to killing all teh things. While I mentioned getting 2 belles, I might, depending on the schemes, run a doxy and a crooligan to help mitigate ap inefficiency and provide scheme running. I would lose the ability to pull people into a triangle of death which is a heavy loss, but it might be worth it depending on the schemes and terrain set up--I might just give up having more than cache in SS for a belle--just not sure.

Lastly, the following two particular situations are particularly scary: 36"/high mobility shooters and Ratjoy.

I have almost no answer to 36"/high mobility shooters such as Seamus, other than hiding, crooligan, meat shielding, and Bete. The first is an issue because ensuring I push into cover is difficult. Crooligan and Bete similarly may not get everyone. Meat shielding just puts a different model at risk. My only thought on the issue is sacrificing a model and hiring a second crooligan who will do his/her best to get into the shooters face and take a hit for the team, or hire a belle and drag the shooter off a building.

Against ratjoy, my only answer is to have bete summon at the same time as Killjoy to take the hits, mitigating his AP efficiency and hopefully survive. But, I don't like using this as a maintsay strategy since that means I have to run it against every outcast master. 

Why not run Spirits? Personal taste for horrors; spirits have few anti-pulse and anti-Terrifying elements; no re-activation threat to gain AP efficiency; Mortimer's movement trick is less useful (only moves Molly, Philip, Datsue-ba and any undead spirit, most of whom are terrible hires); and Corpse Bloat is significantly less useful.

This doesn't mean I would never use Spirits. While I haven't had a chance to test the theory, I feel spirits would probably be better against Arcanists for many of their crews heavily relying on armor. The anti-pulse factor essentially trades for anti-armor, the second defensive measure that tends to come with anti-pulse. Part of the reason I would prefer horrors is because while armor +1 turns pulse into an 8 cost flip for 1 damage, it can generate a full 2 or more between hitting my own guys and crooligan. But, more experienced players won't bunch up against Molly, so Spirits will generally have a slight advantage in doing better damage before they die between adversary and sometimes ignoring armor. 

The hanged also comes into play.

Datsue-ba also comes into play, and she can be an extremely valuable support piece for scheme marker--I'd use the spirit upgrade that gives scheme markers on a spirit dying, which Molly can do by summoning drowned for 2x scheme markers, perfect for Philip while still setting up convict labor.

However, this means my card draw will be less efficient in ensuring I have a great hand going into Turns 2 and 3, the key turns of the game; the major trade off being I have an easier time setting up marker heavy schemes, filtering my deck, and summoning seishin. I will rarely want to summon a non-hanged, or drowned. Hanged requires a 13 crow, thus changing my curve to something less manageable considering I can't force myself to draw one of 5 cards, whereas drawing one of 13 cards is far more likely. A Shikome only improves the draw curve to 1 out of 9 cards.

Lastly, while I said Mortimer's movement trick is less useful, that doesn't mean it's not useful--it's just less useful for the initial double walk, given I'd probably have to hire more expensive models barring a night terror. Mortimer's trick changes to really getting my hanged and other models out of fights--Fling Rot can push my hanged, Shikome, and any enforcers (all desireable hires being undead & spirit) out of battle. An added advantage for this trick is that some of those models are incorporeal, and can almost always extricate themselves from melee even if normal movement is blocked--Hanged are at their best when shooting from afar while maintaining enemies in their aura, and Jakuuna is rarely considered a good scrum model.

Spirits aren't inferior for my set up, but I feel they are slightly more niche. I will be testing horrors before using Spirits, unless I'm going into a match up favoring them over horrors. There is a mentality shift that is certainly better suited to certain set ups, but I think that between the two, horrors at the moment meet more needs than Spirits, and are thus more "general."

Where is Sybelle the bus driver? Seems unnecessary when I have Mortimer/dead doxy push options--Molly only needs to be within 8.1811" of the nearest enemy model to provide a meaningful Black Blood aura with 1 model, and barring terrain issues, 2-3 models at 8" with some leeway--summoning within 6" means I summon at 6" with the rest of the 1.1811" of base past that, plus 1" for black blood for the furthest up I can get. 

If I have dead doxy instead of Sybelle, dead doxy can give additional precise movements to a greater number of targets for the same AP efficiency. Doxy also brings the ability to satisfy Philip's marker hunger by herself, While Sybelle cannot. Doxy also costs 2SS less, which is huge considering how many stones I reserve for my tricks.

Sybelle just doesn't bring enough to the table to make her worth it--without an upgrade, she's a sub par beater, and since my list doesn't normally start with Belles, Sybelle literally only moves Molly. Her shriek is decent, but doesn't make up for lack of versatility in support targets and the extra 2SS cost.

Why not run Nico or Kirai instead of mish mashing Stryder's Reckoning crew, Joe's Kirai support crew, and  the Mortimer idea from the guy on the schemes and stones Molly spotlight? I want to learn Molly's tricks and ins and outs for what I can do and cannot do with strengths, weaknesses, ad mitigations.

Most important, I want to play Molly. I like her backstory, and I like that she has explosive aggression once the enemy comes at me--it's a very different feeling from Seamus's play style and I want to learn a summoner.

I'm don't think it's bad to net-list and play high tier masters for their relative power rankings. While not exactly a good thought, there's no need to re-invent the wheel from good ideas people have. People are getting results from their versions, and I want to see if I can make my own versions of those ideas.

Since I'm attempting my own versions, I don't think I'm mish mashing terribly. I won the game against my Dreamer opponent, albeit he is a newer player and I had the advantage of flank deployment with a strat/scheme combination requiring 0 interaction with the enemy. With the exception of the Mortimer trick, I've used similar ideas to Stryder and Joes' crews with Seamus and had good results.

I'm trying this with Molly because I think it may work and want to see if it is worth the trade for traditional Molly play.

Any and all comments, criticisms, and advice welcome. Apologies for reading for the long post.

[Fetid Strumpet]

Few points:

Molly does have a healing mechanic. It's using a ram on Revelation. Also, given that Molly doesn't tend to use Corpses the Carrion Effigy is actually not too bad an option for her as she can use cards or corpses to heal with his ability.

Your list, and I don't mean this negatively, to me seems a little bit of a mess. Mainly in that your list is going to have major positional issues with the models you selected. For starters, the Graveyard Spirit. Don't get me wrong, I do like the model, but unless you are running a Dead Rider, or some other model that can easily operate away from Molly I tend to find him not a very good buy in a Horror Molly build. Mainly because of her Black Blood giving Aura. If it is in b2b with a Horror, or is within 1" of a Horror in Molly's aura the enemy can effectively plink him to death while still putting dmg on the models they want to hit by using your own black blood to kill him. Thant's partly what I meant by positional challenges. I'd almost always stick to the Necrotic Machine for a totem in Horror Molly.

I don't personally like using Mortimer in Molly lists, again because I want any of my models to be able to be positioned anywhere I want without having to worry about my own mechanics destroying my models, so the fact that he isn't a Horror, nor an undead (if using the emissary) tends to be problematic from my experience. If you are using Mortimer to move your crew through you are missing one of the best parts of that particular combo, that actually works well for Horror Molly. which is a Crooligan. Deploy the Crooligan upfield with From the Shadows and target it with Moritmer's Fresh Meat ability. Additionally if you are running Mad Bomber Molly (IE with Corpse Bloat somewhere in the list to take advantage of the corpses she doesn't really need) then the Crooligan's Creepy and blistering Fog abilities also can combo nicely if you can get the proper activation order down.

I feel your card draw engine is a little too SS invited without taking on the other Card draw Molly really gets good use from. First, Philip, Philip can be a very good model with looked at in the correct way. He can get you a good deal of cards, and he's good at scheme running, (especially if you have someone to push him, more on that in a second) be he is also a very competent scheme-runner-hunter. With better wounds and defenses than many scheme runners can easily take down and a good speed, in addition to using him to get cards you can use him to hunt down the opposing scheme runners that get close to your side of the board. To that end if I bring Philip I almost always bring a Dead Doxy to be his pusher. Using Take the Lead, she can turn a 7+ card flipped or cheated into 2 scheme markers on the first turn that Philip can then munch into 4 more drawn cards. She does this by positioning herself to interact, take the lead toward Philip, then pushing Philip, and then dropping another scheme marker. Additionally if Philip needs to get somewhere she can take the lead and send him scooting 8" in any direction he needs to go. Very useful, considering she can also, if needed, do all the other tricks Doxies can do, and isn't harmed by black blood.

The other card draw engine you aren't taking advantage of is Take Back the Night, which is also compounded by not having any hard hitting Horrors in the list. Getting advantage by doing things you already want to do the opponent is the definition of efficiency in Malifaux, which at base is a game about resource management. You are generally going to want to kill the opponent's models, because you are playing Horror Molly you are going to have Horrors in the list, ostensibly, so it is an upgrade you should really bring along. I tend to put it on Molly, but Philip can be a good target, though he's usually so far back the 10" aura can be tricky at times. So I'd recommend adding one to the list. 

On the notes of not bringing a beater along, or really a collection of midrange Horrors for Molly to use her Limited upgrade's 0 action on is a tad odd. I do use her reactivate ability, but not all that often, because it just isn't as reliably good as her other 0 action. For the reactivate to work you need the resource, so a highish card, plus a suit, a target worth reactivating, and that model has to survive an activation of the opponent. Not impossible, but it does tend to limit how universally useful it is. Whereas the extra action for a horror in 10" is ALWAYS useful. it doesn't give as many potential AP, but it isn't limited to only minions, so you can give extra AP to your beaters, to your scheme runners, or Models like Philip to use his Chatty aura without having to drop Manipulative by activating him. Additionally you get the AP immediately, right now, and don't have to spend any resources making it work. There is no flip, it just works, so no TN to potentially fail, no potential card drain, and it combos very nicely with her accomplice ability. Give a Horror an extra AP then let it go immediately after she is done to get more immediate use from the model. I tended to find that the models I would want to reactivate were almost always want to give it to something other than a minion, and if I did want to give it to a minion that minion was almost always so damaged that after I gave it reactivate the enemy would kill it before it got a chance to go again. Again not knocking the ability, as it can be clutch in certain situations, but it's not an ability I personally would go into the game focusing on unless we got a minion similar to the Stitched together.

Dropping Sybelle isn't a terrible idea, but don't overlook a few things. 1: yes she only moves Molly, but that can be a major aspect of Molly's defense. If the enemy moves models in to attack Molly, one way to save cards on defense is for Molly to just not be there any more, as Sybelle can just whisk her 12" away, no matter how surrounded Molly is, as long as she can get LoS to her. So that means an enemy that wants to effectively keep continual pressure on Molly can't just send all their beaters in on Molly, as if they do they'll waste AP getting to her only to have her teleport 12" away from them once they arrive, or they have to split their forces. Additionally don't forget the Cathouse Madam ability also works on Molly because she's a Belle, so if Molly activates within 6" and LoS of Sybelle her walk increases to base 6". Finally a really good Horror that combo's well with Both Molly and Sybelle is Yin, who can again take advantage of the Crooligan Creepy Auras to get her Gnawing Fear action to land more easily, and as Adam pointed out, Gnawing fear works very well with Sybelle's Attend to Personally to Lock down a model very effectively who can't use SS, or really drain the SS of someone who can. I don't always bring her in Spirit builds but Yin being as good as she is generally means Horror Builds bring her along.

I don't know if any of this was at all helpful, but I do like the thinking you are doing.

[benjoewoo]

It looks like Adam has deleted his post, unless your'e referring to a different thread.

Molly's healing trigger is a healing mechanic, yes, but I was thinking about more consistent healing factors you can get by doing the normal stuff, like Seamus & McM.

Necrotic's positives just don't outweigh grave spirit's positives for me right now. I feel grave spirit is a better option because: (1) necrotic can always be summoned; (2) unavoidable discard for a re-activate list; (3) assuming activation control, I decide when grave spirit is sacrificed; (4) Grave Spirit can lessen hand stress on Molly by reducing a 3/3/X track to 1/1/X-2, meaning 1SS prevention negates "After Damage" triggers; and (4) no model is worth saving to lose the game, and models that contribute more to getting VP than either totem generally prefer armor over movement. Necrotic's main attractions for me are emergency ejection from an area via accomplice and its 0, and extra Turn 1 movement. Board set up might make me choose Necrotic over grave spirit, but not black blood splash.

I already run Philip, Take Back the Night and crooligan--the last one just isn't required. As for Mortimer's movement improperly positioning models, I only push the models I need to since it isn't a mandatory push. I would normally use dead doxy, but inference, convict, and leave your mark favored night terrors for that particular game. 

The lack of hiring SS doesn't hurt for not having good beater/ranged options that I could 0. Lack of hiring SS hurts right now because while Flesh construct and Autopsies can do damage, generally having 25SS on reserve only leaves 25SS for hiring scheme runners and those elite units you described.

I didn't describe how I used Molly's 0 that game, but here's what I did: Turn 1 Philip ate a second marker; Turn 2 Crooligan dropped 2 markers; and Turn 3 I think we called the game by then. I never really wanted for a second 0, but if the strat/schemes required more interaction I might have wanted the Horror pulse for extra hand pressure/drain.

Sybelle should never need to call Molly from a surrounded point--whatever my opponent did to necessitate that, he/she can likely repeat the process. Escaping from that will also generally require Sybelle to be on higher level terrain, otherwise Molly could also escape with Mortimer push--having both is too costly, so I'm willing to risk entrapment. 

Yin has a spot--just not sure the circumstances that favor her. Yin's 0 combo with Sybelle is extra hand stress I can't really afford--my hand advantage usually needs to affect multiple models vs. one model, no matter how elite. I feel the latter occurs less often and I can't plan for it without pre-game knowledge.

Performer is actually something I've considered. If I must engage near my markers, I can sacrifice the marker for Performer, which make punk zombie pulses difficult to escape. However, it's a very difficult model to fit in, since she's not undead and offers little other than helping create a defensive line with scheme markers and occasionally fast. The triggers on Siren's Call are not consistent enough to make me want her regularly over a belle's superior lure with a discard trigger. If I'm planning to take convict labor, her case becomes a lot more persuasive, but otherwise probably not. 

As always Fetid, I appreciate you posting advice--it's helped me improve my Seamus play immensely and now I'm working on Molly. 

[Sholto]

I am just going to add one point, which is that I have started bringing Tear of the Gorgon with Molly. Not in all games - just some. I never used to take it due to the cost. The reason I take it now is that for 3ss for the Upgrade I can take two (0) Actions with Molly, which means that not only do I get the pseudo-Obey I get to reactivate a Rotten Belle or a Dead Doxy and get double use out of them on every Turn I have a 9Rams in hand (or a 9 and a SS). If I have a Hanged along, then depending on the enemy crew (eg. all elites) it can be very powerful. That is 3ss plus a card/ ss vs 5-9ss worth of extra activation every Turn.

[Fetid Strumpet]

I've had the opposite reaction. For the first year plus I used that upgrade all the time, but for me it never delivers. If they don't kill the reactivate target it's still another high card Molly can't use for other things, and smart opponents keep high pressure on Molly, so my Rams are almost always used with Revelation for heals. I just don't personally find that, at present, with the current 0 actions that she has access to, that 3 SS, an upgrade slot, and a 9+ and possibly a SS as well every turn is worth it, as for similar investments I could have just brought another Belle to the game and gotten better than reactivate by just having another model. I would, from personal experience, recommend not taking the Tear. But ultimately best recommendation is try it yourself and see what you think about it, yourself. Sholto, in his meta apparently gets good use from it, whereas in mine I find it one of the most horribly overpriced pieces of nonsense in the game. I'd say try it and make up your own mind as to how much actual utility you get for its cost and decide if it's worth it to you.

[benjoewoo]

I was weighing the Tear decision quite a bit--3SS is steep in this list, where the 3SS savings opens a much larger hiring range than before.

At least in my set up of: Molly with horror path, Take Back the Night, Mortimer with Corpse Bloat (assuming no pre-game knowledge), Philip, and 4SS, Tear would leave me with 28SS used prior to hiring any other models. 22SS goes very fast, when  you want to hire scheme runners/support models and then have room for full health beaters or tarpits as the needs arise.

A crooligan for scheme running lowers that to 18SS, and a re-activate list will require that at least two of those models be flesh construct and/or guild autopsy(s). If I just went double autopsy, that's only 8SS, leaving 10SS for what would presumably be 2x rotten belles or a dead doxy and a 2nd crooligan/another autopsy. Non-reactivate lists will have a little bit of flexibility, though I'd likely lose model count to get a 8+ cost enforcer like Yin, Bete, etc.--Jakuuna will unlikely have a place in these lists until I'm much more comfortable with summoning spacing.

As for how Tear fits into that, I'm not sure it can, because if I didn't run tear, then in the re-activate list that would allow me to hire a dead doxy and a belle with 2 extra SS to give Philip and/or Mortimer other upgrades, or hire Yin + a belle, a 2nd flesh construct/dead doxy, etc. 13SS to hire is very powerful for this list because of the flexibility in hiring 6s and 8s.

But, Tear lets me pull some extra shenanigans. On Turn 1 it's only use would be to give me re-activate, which would require cheating the appropriate suit (ram for just re-activate, mask for the push if I flip/stone for the ram).  That usefulness may or may not be there--9 is important because it gets me a rotten belle summon, corpse bloat, or slice and dice.  On Turn 1 the re-activate would primarily give me extra movement and/or scheme markers for Philip Turn 2. Good, to be sure, but I'm chancing that the 2AP and hand stress outshines the potentially more useful 2AP I could get by hiring a "stronger" model in the first place. Until I start engaging, that's what Tear does for me.

Once engaging, the second 0 will probably always be a horror pulse, to stress my opponent's hand. Since I can't force my minion to use it's re-activate AP first, thus avoiding slow, I am greatly discouraged from spending anything but a 9+ram to get the re-activate, as my chosen model is likely to die before re-activate unless it was a hired model, particularly healthy summon, scheme runner, or I already have activation control. Plus a successful horror pulse to discard my opponent's hand gets me more AP than a 0 re-activate in a re-activate list, or alternatively I paralyze at least 1 model, which should extend the critical Turn to Turns. My major gripe is that Molly being in 4" of multiple enemy models is dangerous without careful positioning, and likely disastrous if my opponent has the ability to chain activate two powerful damage dealers.

I'm hoping I can achieve the effect I'm looking for: extreme hand pressure to use all cards. It should happen more frequently for me if my draw engine is filtering my cards well--I should be discarding at least two low cards for the first two Turns, so my hand should be stronger than average going into the first engagement assuming equal hands, or my deck will a higher percentage of high cards if my hand is still weak. By no means guaranteed, but it's a consistent method that can be set up every turn barring one of my key models is killed very early.

[benjoewoo]

Played a game today.

Deployment: Close <--screw the BJ

Strategy: Guard the Stash

Schemes: Convict Labor, Hunting Party, Show of Force, Undercover Entourage, and Mark for Death

I took Show of Force and Undercover Entourage against summoner dreamer who took Undercover Entourage and Hunting Party.

I hired:

Molly--Horror path, Take Back the Night

Necrotic Machine

Philip--Corpse Bloat

Sybelle

Bete Noir

Flesh Construct

Crooligan

Dead Doxy

I would rather have taken Convict Labor and Entourage, but I noticed: (1) only Dreamer had upgrades, so Philip alone would win Show of Force; and 92) close deployment made convict labor too risky if I deployed first. I ended up deploying second by winning deployment flip, but I couldn't know that.

I won't go into great detail, but a huge surprise was necrotic doing work. His main benefits were: (1) he was a constant paralyze threat that I could just throw around since Philip never really wanted to go bonkers with corpse bloat; (2) his push can make up for not having Mortimer if I don't need to move as far, such as here; (3) he saved me 1SS, which allowed me to hire Bete and still have 7SS to start; (4) he put multiple sources of hand pressure on my opponent with the paralyze trigger, easily threatening re-activate with a charge; and (5) he can trigger Take Back the Night reasonably well with the paralyze trigger presenting a 2/2/5 threat. This isn't likely to make me want grave spirit more generally speaking, because his push effect is significantly less flexible than Mortimer, but given the close deployment, it was what I needed and he brought some surprising fighting pressure.

Another surprise: Sybelle. I went with her over Mortimer because of her built in melee trigger to deny my opponent viable Guard the Stash targets and to give Molly more flexible movement options with the terrain setup. Sybelle did work as far as denying Teddy the ability to score Hunting Party and Guard the Stash, allowing Punk Zombies to concentrate on contesting summoned units and non Terrifying units instead of fighting a full health, Terrifying 13 model with Impossible to Wound.

I was somewhat disappointed by Bete, but I can't complain since he locked Tannen down from moving much and actually hit her paralyze trigger on him. Built in positive flips really helped mitigate his anti-cheat aura.

[Munindk]

Have you considered the Carrion Emissary to give your Flesh Constructs Black Blood? You could give Molly Maniacal Laugh or just have Guild Autopsies summon in Mindless Zombies what would also get Black Blood.

Throw in Bete Noire (again with Black Blood) and you could sort of run a paralyze focused crew giving the Flesh Constructs Devour targets.

Its pure theoryfaux, but I'm pretty psyched about the Emissary

 

[Fetid Strumpet]

I've tried that once or twice, as a note that is a build I do recommend the tear in. The issue I find is that the emissary is already a massive target and without his aura the mindless zombies become detremental because the enemy can just ignore them, hit horrors near them, and blow them up with your own black blood. It's a gimmick crew with an obvious lynchpin, which isn't even a horror, so Molly can't give him an extra ap. I almost feel if you can keep him free of the black blood of your own crew that the Carrion Conflux might be better, one of the big advantages of summoning the punk zombie is its in built in attack flip. Giving that to any summon could free up her options for summoning.

Not knocking the idea as I've tried it as well, just haven't personally decided if it's a good option as of yet.

[benjoewoo]

The emissary essentially brings a free upgrade that says "your non-Yin, RN, and KJ undead enforcers and flesh constructs are Horrors" At least, that's how it currently reads for me. It just doesn't bring a whole lot of useful manipulation for me, and it's Destined 0 basically gets me a flesh construct, drowned, or belle minion. Those are conditionally good models, but I'll most often just summon a flesh construct or dead doxy for tarpitting or movement.

Mindless zombies give me extra activations and throwaway attacks, sure, but I have no other way to really capitalize on them other than as walking corpse bloat targets. I haven't really felt a need to use necrotic fluids, but that might just be because of the games I've played, there haven't been many corpses, or the corpses I did have went to necrotic machine/corpse bloat right away. Usually I get corpses as a result of summoning or engagement, so they're already in position for corpse bloat. An extra attack with a sub-par melee is probably only useful against easy to hit models like Teddy, Ice Golem, etc.

Paralyze crews are not terrible, but there's only one model that can consistently do it: Bishop, albiet it at a high cost. Bete only paralyzes living models, and Sybelle can only paralyze someone by complying them to attempt acting on another of my Terrifying models. Other models paralyze via Terrifying, which is pretty terrible as a planned mechanic unless you have Hanged. Terrifying is great as an incidental mechanic, but not when you're purposefully trying to make it work, because RNG makes it too inconsistent. 

Also, in that game above, I finally used the re-activate. It's a powerful tool, ableit costly, if you have activation control. I only used it once, but with a stone and high ram, I was able to push a recently summoned Punk zombie into killing a changeling and dealing massive damage to the Neverborn Emissary with flurry. Tannen can't dissuade built in positive flips!

[Fetid Strumpet]

The upgrade is basically a bonus ability on the Emissary. If you are bringing the Emissary it's generally because it can hit pretty hard at a decent range, has some minor scheme control (you are going to have corpse markers all over the place because, well, Molly), and the Really good ability to place shards, which also give you corpses. You really need to try out the Shards as they offer a lot of control you wouldn't necessarily think of. Basically you bring the Emissary for the base abilities on the card and get a little extra from the conflux. 

[benjoewoo]

I want to try him, just afraid the 12SS cost makes him very costly for Turn 1 activation control. 

But, I want to use him. My Seamus Avatar calls to be played, and it'll be the only time I can have Seamus & Molly on the field at the "same" time.

[Fetid Strumpet]

12? He's 10 ss.

[benjoewoo]

Sorry, I was thinking that but typed something else.

[Munindk]

My thinking with the zombies is that they're mobile corpse bloat targets, activation control and that they splash Black Blood when struck, making them annoying to remove. Its all theoryfaux though, so it might look great on paper but not be worth the SS/AP on the table

[benjoewoo]

I have been thinking that dropping Mortimer in most situations may be acceptable. I can always shift Corpse bloat over the Philip, and moving in Sybelle over Mortimer may create a better source of hand stress or SS stress--Sybelle with bleeding tongue and built in book trigger could repeatedly force the opponent to discard cards and SS instead of simply moving around to provide movement to Molly.

The new core list would be:
Molly--Horror Path, Take Back the Night, with 4SS reserve

Philip & the Nanny

Sybelle--Bleeding Tongue

This is now 23SS in reserve. Corpse Bloat would become an option, as Sybelle always has a built in ranged move. 

This alleviates hand stress to ensure Corpse Bloat goes off with a 9, but that means I lose a lot of the "free" AP I get from moving most of my crew via Mortimer. The new turn 1 would then have to be something wonky like the following, assuming no dead doxy or dead doxy is unable to cast Take the Lead successfully.

1. model (dead doxy in case Take when the Lead fails) drops a marker, walks.

2. 2nd model drops a marker, walks.

3. Philip eats both markers.

4-X. Other models activate.

X+1. Sybelle activates, calls Molly up but puts her in range of Philip for 0.

X+2. Molly 0s Philip to move up. 

I lose 2AP in this scenario in exchange for the extra cards, as two models will drop markers, costing them an 1AP each. Philip has nothing better to do Turn 1 usually, so his AP isn't lost. Unless Molly was planning to engage this turn, it's unlikely she's a source of losing AP from the 0. For the above scenario I assume Take the Lead fails, because if it doesn't fail, I lose 0 AP if I force Philip to walk, which would allow Doxy next turn to catch up to Philip while repeating the scheme marker shenanigans.

This compares to Mortimer, who generally moves at least Molly, Philip, and grave spirit. Turn 1 this happens twice, generating around 4.5 AP considering the last models to be pushed will not push their full walk generally. Subtracting the 2AP for other models to drop markers instead, it comes out to a rough surplus of 2.5AP. If there is sparse terrain in the deployment zone, I could get more efficiency. In denser terrain, I could get less. 

I think that in flank and corner deployment, Mortimer will push out Sybelle because the AP efficiency is maximized in those deployments, plus the greater distances mean I can set up convict labor more easily in a way that is very difficult to oppose, allowing me to hire with a focus on completing the strategy and only 1 scheme. In standard deployment, Mortimer is still very useful, and it would be strat/scheme dependent for me to decide whether I use him--being 30" from the center line means his movement trick is very good, but he has more catching up to do than in Flank/Corner deployments. In close deployment the trick is not useful enough to give up so many SS.

Ultimately, the switch means I save 3SS and have a model who can move my master and generate slightly better pressure on resources via melee attacks. The trade off is I can lose a lot of my AP efficiency and the ability to shift most of my crew in one activation during later Turns--e.g. I can't summon a punk zombie with two autopsies and then accomplice mortimer to push the autopsies out to relative safety. Might seem corner case, but an autopsy only requires an 8 to summon and a punk requires an 11.

[benjoewoo]

This will probably end the discussion in this thread, but it was a good one while it lasted.

Went to Califaux, and in the two games I took Molly, I did not take Mortimer, instead taking necrotic. The first game was in standard deployment and the second was in corner deployment. 

Both times, necrotic was more than enough because when you have terrain boards randomly designed by other people, often you don't have great push lanes to utilize a double fresh meat. Plus, it allowed me, in the tournament setting, to hire more, slightly less resilient models, to score more points in the time I had--more important than getting a cool movement trick off.

[Kogan Style]

On 6/5/2016 at 8:29 AM, benjoewoo said:

I lose 2AP in this scenario in exchange for the extra cards, as two models will drop markers, costing them an 1AP each. Philip has nothing better to do Turn 1 usually, so his AP isn't lost. Unless Molly was planning to engage this turn, it's unlikely she's a source of losing AP from the 0. For the above scenario I assume Take the Lead fails, because if it doesn't fail, I lose 0 AP if I force Philip to walk, which would allow Doxy next turn to catch up to Philip while repeating the scheme marker shenanigans.

You may want to consider Necropunks for marker feeding. Have them drop markers, leap, then drop another marker (assuming both leaps succeed) which will keep Philip fed for 2 turns, but only requiring 4 AP from turn 1, and freeing your scheme runners to do other things in T2

[benjoewoo]

For marker feeding purposes, I don't initially think Necropunk is as good of a choice--I would take Necropunk for SS numbers or because he more efficiently creates a better point differential. 

On Turn 1, Necropunk could leap up 6" while dropping 2 markers, but Philip moves up 0". Turn 2, Necropunk could repeat the act, moving up 6", putting it 18" up the board for standard deployment with 1 marker qualifying for convict labor in standard deployment or as Philip food. Philip will again move 0" if he eats both markers, and he can move 6" if he only eats 1. Turn 3 Necropunk must walk/leap if Philip didn't eat both markers, then drop a marker, then may leap/walk away, letting Philip eat 0-2 markers depending on whether you took convict labor. Philip eating 0 markers means he can walk up to 12" and use his 0/melee/upgrade stuff. At the end of this, Philip could have eaten 0-6 markers.

On Turn 1, Dead Doxy drops a marker, pushes 4-5" towards Phililp and pushes him to max 6" from the initial marker, and then drops a second marker. Philip eats both and has moved between 0-2" usually. Turn 2 Doxy takes the lead, pushing Philip, walks, and drops a marker. Philip eats that marker and walks, putting him 6" away from the marker doxy dropped. Turn 3 Doxy can drop a marker, take the lead to push Philip 0-8", and drop a second marker. When Philip activates he can eat both markers or walk and do other stuff. Philip can eat 0-5 markers, depending on whether you took convict labor.

Assuming you didn't take convict labor, Necropunk can actually feed 1 more marker than Doxy by end of Turn 3. However, doing so requires necropunk not move forward too much, which kind of defeats its purpose. Doxy can always stay near Philip because take the lead moves doxy. Necropunk needs a 6 to leap, and Doxy needs a 7 to push. Both are roughly average cards, since the median value is 6.5, slightly favoring necropunk as "below average". However, Necropunk doesn't qualify for take back the night, assuming Philip took it, and feeding Philip markers gimps the necropunk. Necropunk also has no other benefit to Philip directly, whereas Doxy can push Philip up to 8" from his position ready to still eat at least 1 marker or have him move 20". This extra 8" makes him a much more dangerous threat to the opponent taking scheme marker centric schemes. Lastly, if doxy dies, and Philip is within 4", he gets fast, retaining the ability to walk up to 18" instead of 20". 

There's also some combat oriented tricks--doxy can charge, get some damage, then take the lead on Philip to disengage. Necropunk can do the same with leap to a different position, but doxy has a Ml6 vs. necropunks Ml5. Doxy will also be able to prevent a future charge on Philip by pushing him away, while Necropunk does not necessarily benefit Philip by leaping away.