Wastrel + Komainu with Yan Lo?

[qoob]

Heya wyrdos!

I'm interested in starting Yan Lo because I like his mechanics and I mainly play TT and Ressers anyway. I've listened to the Schemes and Stones Episode and Bucky mentioned Wastrel and Komainus as potent models for Yan Lo.

What makes them good in his Crew? Ok they are cheap models so Yan Lo can build up his Chi quickly. Are there some synergies?

Thank you!

[Skitt_Happens]

Wastrels are cheap and get easy defensive, making them good chi piggy banks.

Komainu are spirits, making fury of yomi easier to get off as you don't have to make them spirits first. 

[Rathnard]

2 hours ago, Skitt_Happens said:

Wastrels are cheap and get easy defensive, making them good chi piggy banks.

Komainu are spirits, making fury of yomi easier to get off as you don't have to make them spirits first. 

Is killing a 4SS Wastrel really worth the Chi? It seems like a bit of a waste of AP and cards to me. 

That aside, Wastrels are solid little minions. As you say, they get an easy Defensive, plus Ruthless and their positive flips on the attack make them low maintenance - another point in their favour. Then there's the (2) Heal, which is pretty AP efficient if you can get a useful trigger for them at the same time. 

Komainu are the go-to cheap minions for Yan Lo though. They've got the ancestor synergy, and some great resiliance and damage output for a 5SS minion. 

[SinJ]

22 minutes ago, Rathnard said:

Is killing a 4SS Wastrel really worth the Chi? It seems like a bit of a waste of AP and cards to me. 

I think Wastrels are pretty underrated models for the cost, but for Chi farming on my own models I'd much rather take a Komaimu. They can actually survive the two severe that you want to inflict onto them. Yan Lo really isn't looking to do a whole lot on turn one other than move forward. Getting that chi faster really accelerates Yan Lo's upgrade equipping.

On a side note I've been play-testing an Obsidian Oni with Yan Lo and Komaimu. It's a pretty hard-hitting combo for so few stones (see Burning synergy). When Yan Lo gives the Oni Armor it greatly increases his survivability as well and at the end of day he's a minion with some good versatility.

[Rathnard]

Yeah, i like what i see with the Obsidian Oni.  He's got ALOT of synergies with other models that aren't immediately obvious on first glance. In fact, it hadn't even occurred to me that a Komainu could hand out the burning for him to benefit from!

[GoldenWG]

Tengu is the alpha chi farmer. I always start my Yan Lo games by whacking it. By end of turn one I have 2 chi which become an upgrade. It comes with regen built in and has a low defense. It is also a spirit. 

 

It is a thankless job but important to the list.

[Skitt_Happens]

4 hours ago, Rathnard said:

Is killing a 4SS Wastrel really worth the Chi? It seems like a bit of a waste of AP and cards to me. 

It's the synergy I have heard for it - haven't tried it as Yan Lo is in my master queue but hasn't yet made it to the table. I'm also a big fan of Wastrels, but the premise is:

In standard or corner deployment such that you are not immediately engaging the enemy en-mass, walk the Wastrels out in front of Yan Lo and gain defensive.

YL discards a card to gain Chi +1.

Charge Wastrel with YL, picking the lowest card for defence and cheating up to get a straight flip for damage.

Cheat in severe damage to gain Chi +1

Second swing you just need to hit, any damage kills Wastrel, granting another Chi +1 and drops a corpse marker.

Using Toshiro, summon an Ashigaru from corpse.

You've turned a useful 4ss model into a useful 5ss model, slow and wounded but 10" up the board (YL's 6" charge + 1"  + 1" base of Wastrel + 1" corpse marker +1" base of Ashigaru) and YL has Chi +3. Probably costs you 3-4 cards. I reckon that's worth it.

[InvokeChaos]

19 minutes ago, Skitt_Happens said:

It's the synergy I have heard for it - haven't tried it as Yan Lo is in my master queue but hasn't yet made it to the table. I'm also a big fan of Wastrels, but the premise is:

In standard or corner deployment such that you are not immediately engaging the enemy en-mass, walk the Wastrels out in front of Yan Lo and gain defensive.

YL discards a card to gain Chi +1.

Charge Wastrel with YL, picking the lowest card for defence and cheating up to get a straight flip for damage.

Cheat in severe damage to gain Chi +1

Second swing you just need to hit, any damage kills Wastrel, granting another Chi +1 and drops a corpse marker.

Using Toshiro, summon an Ashigaru from corpse.

You've turned a useful 4ss model into a useful 5ss model, slow and wounded but 10" up the board (YL's 6" charge + 1"  + 1" base of Wastrel + 1" corpse marker +1" base of Ashigaru) and YL has Chi +3. Probably costs you 3-4 cards. I reckon that's worth it.

Two things to be careful with here (I've done this trick a few times and have gravitated away from it):

1) Cards in hand on turn 1 (I would never do this outside of turn 1).  If you can't pull this off with cards in hand, hoping for good flips is going to be a waste of AP. It's too big a risk. If you don't have the cards in hand to do it, just accept that the wastrel will actually be used for it's abilities and focus on how to to get their work in (not hard honestly pretty decent model all in all).

2) Your opponent's crew. I guarantee you that depending on who you are facing, taking 3-4 cards to gain 3 chi is NOT worth it. If you have a bomb coming in or an aggressive ranged list, they will love you pitching all those cards. And arcanists with a december acolyte just cackle with glee. I know this is kind of an obvious point, but it's easy to miss in the heat of the moment and you're excited to do something really cool.

Further food for thought: 

You need a high card for the severe. Maybe a moderate card for the attack from Yan Lo. If you flip higher than you'd like on the defensive, you may even need to cheat in a low card... and you've potentially lost two good cards from your deck. Then Toshiro needs a 9+ and a soulstone possibly for the Ashigaru. Not to mention the card you pitch for 1 chi at the beginning of Lo's activation. Worst case scenario here is that you've used 4-5 cards from hand, 9 cards from your deck (4 on +def, 4 on atk/dam, 1 on summons) and a soulstone to gain 3 chi. At least one of those had to be a face card and the other a high moderate. 

Versus gaining 1 chi for one low card and just popping the ash ascendent. Turn 2 you are going to be in the thick, ideally, anyways. 

I'm not saying that the Wastrel (or Komainu) trick isn't a good idea.  But you have to keep those two things in mind. Flipping a red joker on that + def flip from the Wastrel hurts SO bad. At least if you flip a black joker in those shenanigans, you are trading a chi for removing the black joker from your deck for a turn. Which I can handle.

I've used the trick. It's actually made a sizeable difference before as well. But I was playing against a slowish crew, and we did no engagements turn 1.

As such, my recommendation is that if you are going to attempt this trick... wait until the end of the turn. Figure out what your opponent is going to do, and with what... and then IF you still have the cards and you don't need them for turn 2... go for it.

[Tokapondora]

Now, I've never tried this wastrel-trick because it's always seemed like a fairly big waste of resources, but could it possibly work with Clockwork Traps? I don't mind bringing the occasional Pathfinder and hell, even 2 ss seems almost doable (4 ss for 2 chi is really just too much), so would it be at all usable even without the defensive stance? The armor+2 just means you need to do severe damage once and kill it on the next, which is fairly doable, and while it might cost you an extra card (50/50) it seems far more cost-efficient than 4 ss for a unit that wont live to turn 2.

[Rurouni Benshin]

Honestly, I've never once used the tactic of Yan Lo attacking my own models to gain Chi.  I've always found that strictly going after enemy models was enough.  The first turn Chi allows him to become Impossible to Wound, which is already a great defense.  Worst case scenario, if I don't get to use "Ascendance" until Turn 3 to gain, Incorporeal, it's not the end of the world for me.  In my experience, I've actually forgone that Ascendant upgrade, because by then I've enough Chi to gain Bone Ascendant, because Hunpo Assault is usually situationally better for me at that point.

[Tokapondora]

I mean, I do see the appeal of 3 chi turn 1 because it would mean having your Ash and Spirit Ascendant turn 2 with chi to spare (I really never get Bone unless I end up with 6 chi and no models in sight to heal), I just find it difficult to put so much SS and cards in getting 2 chi. Even if it gives you a bit of a headstart. Having never used this, I just kind of wonder if this is like a quirky gimmick or if it's actually viable to some degree.

[Rurouni Benshin]

Personally, I'd rather go after my enemy's models.  That being said, I'd have no problems with sending an Ashigaru or 2 headlong into battle more aggressively, and let my opponent target them early on.  If they die within range, your Chi will go up, and if you have Toshiro, you can just as easily bring them back up. 

[chris_havoc]

I agree with Ben, Yan Lo doesn't need to spend an entire Activation and a model to get his Chi up. I mean, it's a good tactic but I find once you're into the game he has more than enough to go around. I would say that for the tactic, Komainu is worth the extra point. You can do your severe twice and kill him for 4 Chi in an activation or leave him alive to keep your model count healthy. It seems very card intensive though.

Honestly, I have found that Yan Lo is the ULTIMATE Scheme-runner hunter. He can Lightning Dance them into bad positions or just hit them with his Spirit Barrage that just gets better over time. What's weird about his sub-par damage track is that people either rationalise that there's no point to cheat because the damage isn't so bad, or they do cheat and you have Ca 8 and will almost always force through some weak damage. It also makes targeting big tough tank hitters with low Df pretty useful. To get back on topic, he hits harder than you might think just because of the psychology behind taking the lowish damage and the massive Ca. So there are a lot of opportunities to get Chi off of enemies.

It's also useful to remember that you only have to take Ascendant at the end of your activation to get the Upgrades so you benefit from Chi before you have to lower it. I know that's obvious but I think it's something you forget doing crew planning and reading his card.

[anencephalous]

I almost always attack something of my own on turn one. If I have the cards and the cover, I turn a wastel into a ashigaru with Toshiro. Note that you do not gain a Chi just for killing your own model, it has to be an enemy model. I also sometimes hit Izamu. With the two armour, a couple of severe attacks sets him back 4 points, which can be healed pretty easy by himself, a wastrel, Chiaki, Sensei Yu or the Yo himself.

Sometimes you dont get the cards to make it viable, or a heap of alpha strike/sniper models on the other side of the board makes it an unsound bet, but getting one or two extra chi on Yo is critical for the mid game. You need six ASAP if you want to Hunpo during the time when lots of models are still on the table.