Punk Zombie splashing

[InvokeChaos]

I have been looking at using McCabe in a skew list with 3 zombies and Toshiro with 3 hounds and Luna. McCabe with Promises and Toshiro make the zombies (if in both auras) have a triple positive on attack flips. Excessive, but humorous in my head. Strangemetal shirt seems legit here. Hounds will be hounds.

Not competitive. But sounds fun.

So what masters would you consider splashing a punk zombie or two with Toshiro?

[Rurouni Benshin]

I like taking Toshiro with Mei Feng, personally.  The Punk Zombies don't always come along, but with "Command the Graves", and access to free Scrap Markers from Mechanized Porkchops and the Shadow Emissary, it's easy access to summoning Komainu, who also benefit from his passive benefits as well.

[Skitt_Happens]

When do people take Punk Zombies? I am struggling to find a time when I would take them over illuminated: faster, tougher (I think) and potentially, when given fast by Toshiro to use scintillating cloud and charge, higher damage potential. Unimpeded is nice but... In almost every situation an Illuminated seems more useful. Am I wrong?

[tomjoad]

18 minutes ago, Skitt_Happens said:

When do people take Punk Zombies? I am struggling to find a time when I would take them over illuminated: faster, tougher (I think) and potentially, when given fast by Toshiro to use scintillating cloud and charge, higher damage potential. Unimpeded is nice but... In almost every situation an Illuminated seems more useful. Am I wrong?

No. Punk Zombies are good to summon, so Nico likes them, and they're more fluffy, I guess, so a more fluff/storyline driven player might like them. But in general? Yeah, Illuminated are better.

[Paddywhack]

Sadly Punk Zombies are higher cost due to Nicodem's summon. If they were cheaper they would be even easier for him to summon. They are great as a summon, but too pricey to buy.

I wish there was a way to balance the summoning differently as I would like to hire them more often for fluff reasons, but they simply cost too much for how slow they are. They always die before they can get to anyone. 

[kross1]

Use them with Yan Lo and lightening dance opponents model to a waiting Flurry at triple positives ( if toshiro is within 6"). Any other master, no.

[SinJ]

Unimpeded is really not an ability I would underestimate and they hit plenty hard when pushed and made fast by Toshiro see Flurry. I find that Unimpeded is extremely useful when playing on a well apportioned Malifaux table.

[apes-ma]

15 hours ago, Paddywhack said:

Sadly Punk Zombies are higher cost due to Nicodem's summon. If they were cheaper they would be even easier for him to summon. They are great as a summon, but too pricey to buy.

I wish there was a way to balance the summoning differently as I would like to hire them more often for fluff reasons, but they simply cost too much for how slow they are. They always die before they can get to anyone. 

I understand why minions might be costed higher when they can be summoned, but I don't understand why the same tax can't be included in the base TN for the summon spell. For example, instead of a spell being a target number of 10 + the SS cost of the minion, why not make it 11 + the SS cost of the minion? I am sure there might be something I have overlooked, but if that was the case the TN to summon a punk zombie would be the same, but they would also be hireable for a more balanced cost, right?

[InvokeChaos]

I don't think the Punk Zombies are necessarily worse than Illuminated. I mean just a quick (sorta) side by side:

TL;DR Pick what you like. They both do good work.

Offense:

If you are running out of Lynch's crew, Illuminated have to generate their own brilliance. That takes an AP and is a . but assuming you do get it off, you're looking at a 2/4/5 followed by a swing at 4/6/7.  Let's assume you have the hand or cards to guarantee the hits. That's 6 at minimum, 10 at moderate and 12 at severe for both. Punks can flurry for a discard at 2/4/5. Again at guaranteed hits (which is easier for the zombies with a built in positive to attack) that's 6 minimum, 12 moderate and 15 severe. I pretty much always assume I'm getting weak damage in general (cuz cards hate me lol) but unless you get that engineered weak then severe from the Illuminated for 9 damage... the Punk is more reliable. Especially on the charge.  Now running two illuminated skews things a bit, but again, if you engineer things... best case scenario is around 20 damage. If you have the cards for that, then you're looking at something comparable with the zombies.

McCabe: Both benefit from Glowing Saber and more importantly Reactivate. Both can get fast from Toshiro and get those crazy positive flips from their auras. I think pure damage wise, again it's a toss-up. If you setup the brilliance, then reactivate... that's potentially 14 damage waiting to happen. Or 10-15 more damage from a Zombie. You can fish better with the zombie, but that's got its pros and cons. Think they come out even here.

Defense:

Armor 1, Regen 1, Terrifying (All) 10 vs HtK, HtW2. They have the same amount of wounds. And i think they have the same def/wp (illuminated might be a point higher on one or the other).  I call that kinda even honestly. Terrifying 10 is laughable, just a card waste really. The miracle black joker or something is always funny though. Regen plus Brillshaper and Armor 1 means they can be hard to shift. You don't one shot an Illuminated, you've got an uphill battle. If you're taking 3-4 damage swings to the face, then it's gonna take about 3-4 hits to drop you.  And if it doesn't, you're healing for another two swings. With the zombies, you're assuming minimum damage at HtW2... so average of 2-3 damage. So about 3-4 hits. I'd say on the baseline, the Illuminated are a tad more resilient, but they can get spiked; especially with a cheat. A nice solid 5 damage hit, and their on their back legs already. Where as with a Zombie, cheating probably isn't going to happen, but you still might get that woeful triple moderate hit. Regardless though, neither is going to get one-shotted. Hard to wound is harder to bypass then armor, though.

McCabe: Armor works great on both.  I think when healing is involved, on average the Punk Zombies edge out a bit because of hard to kill. Though Regen 3, with Brillshaper gets them back up to full on a severe flip... and that's just freaking good. Result: another tie.

Movement:

I think this is a wash as well. 4/6 with unimpeded or a 5/8.  Depending on the situation one is better than the other. I'd rather have the slower movement that ignores severe terrain sometimes, and I';d rather have the really awesome threat range the other.

McCabe: With all the pushes and badge of speed and such, I think Punk Zombies are bit better in this category. You are going to get in range. But that severe terrain still can really hamper the illuminated who suddenly have a walk of 2.5 and a charge of 4. Still going to get there with nimble, unless there's a REALLY big piece. Argument can be made that illuminated can get backfield way better if they have the clearance. I agree, so again... pretty even on this front.

All in all, I don't think you can go wrong with either minion. It depends on what your board looks like, who you're facing, etc.