Upgrades questions

[Stark]

Hey wyrdos! 
We've got a discussion in our community about two questions:

1. About personal Kangs upgrade "People's challenge". This upgrade gains the Df trigger (rams), but we don't understand is it gains "build in" rams suit for Kangs Df  (like tomes on Df stat of Colette) or it is still required a rams on the defensive flip? I think the second, but some folks give an example of Rasputinas upgrade "Sub zero" where defensive trigger (tomes) is parenthesized and not "build in" (so Kang is no need rams suit on the defensive flip for that trigger and it's always working).

 

 

2. Situation. Terror tot, Black blood shaman and Nekima with upgrade "True mother"
  

The enemy model is killed by Nekima within 4" of the Shaman and there is Terror tot within 6" of Nekima. The player decided to "evolve" terror tot to the Young nephilim. And after that he want use ability "Blood in the air" for pushing Young nephilim. I said it's not possible because at the moment of death on the board was only terror tot, and the Young nephilim is the new model and he was not present at the moment of death, so he can't use "Blood in the air".

I'm sorry if questions is wryly written, but I hope you understand me)

[santaclaws01]

1. The ability is just a defensive trigger. It doesn't modify his Df stat in any way

 

2. Terror Tot is not killed when it uses the Grow ability, it is sacrificed, so Blood In The Air has no effect.

[solkan]

2 hours ago, Stark said:

Hey wyrdos! 
We've got a discussion in our community about two questions:

1. About personal Kangs upgrade "People's challenge". This upgrade gains the Df trigger (rams), but we don't understand is it gains "build in" rams suit for Kangs Df  (like tomes on Df stat of Colette) or it is still required a rams on the defensive flip? I think the second, but some folks give an example of Rasputinas upgrade "Sub zero" where defensive trigger (tomes) is parenthesized and not "build in" (so Kang is no need rams suit on the defensive flip for that trigger and it's always working).

 

 

The text

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Df "You Can Try..."

has to be a typo for

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Df () "You Can Try..."

because "Df " by itself doesn't mean anything.  In order to add a suit to an attribute, the English words would have to be written out.  The words "Add a suit to his model's Df attribute" or something similar would have to be written out, either somewhere in the rules explaining that the name of an attribute followed by a suit means that, or the upgrade would have to say it.

 

2 hours ago, Stark said:

2. Situation. Terror tot, Black blood shaman and Nekima with upgrade "True mother"
  

The enemy model is killed by Nekima within 4" of the Shaman and there is Terror tot within 6" of Nekima. The player decided to "evolve" terror tot to the Young nephilim. And after that he want use ability "Blood in the air" for pushing Young nephilim. I said it's not possible because at the moment of death on the board was only terror tot, and the Young nephilim is the new model and he was not present at the moment of death, so he can't use "Blood in the air".

The problem is that you're trying to resolve Blood In the Air partially--to determine which models are affected by it--before you resolve the abilities.  The rules don't work that way.

 

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Blood In The Air: If an enemy model is killed within 4" of this model, all friendly Nephilim within LoS of the enemy model may push up to their Wk towards it before removing it.

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Feast, My Darlings: When this model kills an enemy model, a friendly model within 6" may count as having killed the model for the purposes of the Grow and Mature Abilities.

The timing specified by the red text is equivalent, but the timing for Blood In the Air is subject to two timing constraints (the red text and the yellow text).  They both happen when the model is killed, but Blood In the Air has to also happen before the model is removed.

So the model gets reduced to 0 wounds, you're about to remove it from the table as killed and you have to pause to resolve Blood In the Air.  Because of the text in yellow, the model remains on the table.

The other player wanted to resolve Feast, My Darlings to let a Terror Tot count as killing a model, then resolve Grow to summon a model and sacrifice the Terror Tot, and then resolve Blood In the Air.  That sequence is allowed by General Timing.

When you resolve Blood In The Air, that's when you resolve "all friendly Nephilim wihin LoS of the enemy model".  You don't resolve "all friendly Nephilim within LoS of the enemy model" before that, so you don't exclude models from the effect because they didn't exist earlier.  In other words, "all friendly Nephilim within LoS of the enemy model" doesn't have an implied "at the time it was killed" clause.

The text in yellow delays removal of the model without otherwise changing the timing of the abilities is a consequence of the FAQ entries:

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16) Q: If a model has an “After Damaging” Trigger which allows it to push/move and it kills a model with Explosive Demise, can it use its Trigger to push/move away from the model it killed before taking damage from Explosive Demise?

A: No. Explosive Demise happens when the model is killed, which would be during Step 5 of the duel process (Determine

Success, Core Rulebook pg. 33) and After Damaging Triggers occur after Step 5 (Core Rulebook pg. 32).

and the statement in the 'After Damaging' trigger definition:

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•After damaging: These effects happen after Step 5 and only if the target suffers 1 or more damage from the Action. These effects are resolved before the damaged model is removed if it was killed by the damage.

 

As far as differentiating between "if" and "when", you don't really:

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9) Q: McMourning’s Road Kill Scholar Ability states that he summons a Canine Remains “if a model is killed by the Poison Condition.” How does the timing work out in relation to Explosive Demise when Pere Ravage is killed by the Poison Condition at the end of the Turn? Will Explosive Demise happen before or after the Canine Remains is summoned?

A: Abilities that happen “if” a certain situation arises happen “when” that situation arises, so Explosive Demise and Road Kill Scholar would have the same timing point in the above example. In this instance, see the General Timing box on pg. 46 of the core rulebook. As there is no Acting or Defending model, the Abilities belonging to that Turn’s First Player would go first.

 

[SpiralngCadavr]

I have no idea what sewn means... built in?

You can only declare one trigger off of one side of a duel, unless something says otherwise. If a suit is on the stat already, you don't need to use a card/soulstone for the suit to get the trigger.

On the second one... I think that's when it gets to be splitting hairs regarding the timing of "if" vs. "when," and I have no idea what the proper outcome is there. Wish there were a second edition super-giant chart dictating the full flow of an action resolution like there was last edition.

 

Santaclaws, I believe you're misreading Blood in the Air.

[GueFiola]

First question is, does this mean that the is integrated by this Upgrade in Df Stat for this Duel, or lack of brackets nothing but a misprint?

[Stark]

Just now, SpiralngCadavr said:

I have no idea what sewn means... built in?

Yes! I could not find the right word))

 

Just now, SpiralngCadavr said:

If a suit is on the stat already, you don't need to use a card/soulstone for the suit to get the trigger.

Kang has no build in suits. So the question: Will be the rams suit build in (Df) after taking this upgrade? I know it's obvious, but some folks don't believe me. 

[SpiralngCadavr]

I can't think of any abilities that add suits, so I'm pretty sure he won't have a suit. I think the parentheses are just inconsistent.

[santaclaws01]

27 minutes ago, SpiralngCadavr said:

I have no idea what sewn means... built in?

You can only declare one trigger off of one side of a duel, unless something says otherwise. If a suit is on the stat already, you don't need to use a card/soulstone for the suit to get the trigger.

On the second one... I think that's when it gets to be splitting hairs regarding the timing of "if" vs. "when," and I have no idea what the proper outcome is there. Wish there were a second edition super-giant chart dictating the full flow of an action resolution like there was last edition.

 

Santaclaws, I believe you're misreading Blood in the Air.

I am, I don't know why I was thinking that Blood In The Air was the Terror Tot's Brood ability.

But I still think Blood In The Air wouldn't allow the summoned Young to push towards the killed model.

Blood in the Air happens as soon as a model is killed and is directly inserted in between the death of the model and the removal of the model. The Grow ability is not, so the "model is immediately removed" that happens when the model drops to 0 wds would happen before Grow goes off. However, Blood in the Air would allow the Terror Tot to push.