Gremlin crew box to start with

[Sordid Strumpet]

6 hours ago, Omenbringer said:

If Gremlins aren't your main faction then I can see your argument up to a point, however all the models you mention above function a lot better (more efficiently) when healing is available (Just as the faction as a whole functions better when the overlapping synergies are available). For example the Lacroix's are decent without Reckless and Dumb Luck but they are much more effective with them, healing is what allows them to function turn after turn. Lightning Bugs are good on their own (probably a bit to good for their low cost given their versatility) but as of this moment there isn't a way to replace them when they are killed, meaning keeping them alive is still important. Mass Healing from a Slop Hauler is one of the best ways to do that.

Again, sure you can forego Slop Hauler's in a list and still be somewhat competitive, but the Faction as a whole was largely designed with access to healing in mind, so doing so is going to make the game much more difficult. I have never had a game where they did not easily offset their 5 SS cost by keeping my other Gremlins/ Pigs alive and functioning at peak performance.

I agree entirely that healing is essential, but I think between dirty cheater, the trusty flask on Remi and Quality Mash Liquor, there are other valid healing options out there.

[Math Mathonwy]

On 1/16/2016 at 1:04 AM, Sordid Strumpet said:

I agree entirely that healing is essential, but I think between dirty cheater, the trusty flask on Remi and Quality Mash Liquor, there are other valid healing options out there.

Dirty Cheater heals are good but somewhat limited. As for your other suggestions - I find that they are more AP intensive and cost AP from more expensive models. With one Slop Hauler I usually heal three models at minimum (counting Sloppie himself) so for 2AP you get the equivalent of 3AP spent on Quality Mash. And you can heal very expensive models using AP from a 5SS Sloppie.

Full disclosure: I don't really rate Quality Mash Liquor - I think it isn't very good.

[Sordid Strumpet]

All true, I'll keep playing and may well come round to that point of view  I've only recently branched out from arcanists.

[Sordid Strumpet]

3 hours ago, Math Mathonwy said:

Dirty Cheater heals are good but somewhat limited. As for your other suggestions - I find that they are more AP intensive and cost AP from more expensive models. With one Slop Hauler I usually heal three models at minimum (counting Sloppie himself) so for 2AP you get the equivalent of 3AP spent on Quality Mash. And you can heal very expensive models using AP from a 5SS Sloppie.

Full disclosure: I don't really rate Quality Mash Liquor - I think it isn't very good.

Here's my question though: he's Wk 4 and has a 3" heal bubble. That's a 7" healing range, sort of. Are you not handicapping yourself in terms of positioning by keeping 3 models clustered together for the heal? Alternatively, how many AP do you need to spend repositioning your models before being able to get the heal off?

I can see it being effective if you summon a lot with Som'er or Ulix because there's always something damaged nearby. But with Wong or Ophelia or Zoraida? I tend to make crews with no more than 8 models, and if half of them are within 3" of a slop hauler, are they functioning at maximum efficiency?

Would I have been better off with the models somewhere else on the board and not spamming reckless/dumb luck?

I mean, Ophelia can do huge damage by herself and suffer minimal damage in return, Pere wants to blow up, Francois has stilts, Remi his trusty flask and Burt doesn't dumb luck at all so between all of those, dirty cheater seems sufficient to mitigate the damage I do to my own crew.

Mancha Roja can punch with the best of them and isn't reckless at all, lightning bugs can heal very reliably - especially with aim high boys being able to keep Francois and Mancha or whoever you chose to be your beater relatively healthy via the Yippee! Trigger even when engaged. If you then bring some self-healing pork, it still seems to me as though slop haulers, while nice, aren't necessary.

[Math Mathonwy]

45 minutes ago, Sordid Strumpet said:

Here's my question though: he's Wk 4 and has a 3" heal bubble. That's a 7" healing range, sort of. Are you not handicapping yourself in terms of positioning by keeping 3 models clustered together for the heal? Alternatively, how many AP do you need to spend repositioning your models before being able to get the heal off?

You shouldn't get caught up in a mindset where you feel that you need to heal with them every turn. You heal with them when it suits you and the rest of the time they can do whatever. Their Wk is low but their Cg is extremely high, for example. And with Bayou Two-card they aren't half-bad in melee, actually. So use them opportunistically.

Even if you forget the heal, they are worth their points, which is somewhat crazy if you think about it. Bayou Two-card, access to three AP, a nasty debuff and fair shooting + melee ability. What's not to love? Against non-Armored models they can often be better beaters than Lightning Bugs simply due to Bayou Two-card.

Also note that Gremlins have a lot of reasons to clump up a bit. Lenny, Ophelia, Merris, Liquid Bravery, controlling Pigs, and so on and so forth.

45 minutes ago, Sordid Strumpet said:

I can see it being effective if you summon a lot with Som'er or Ulix because there's always something damaged nearby. But with Wong or Ophelia or Zoraida? I tend to make crews with no more than 8 models, and if half of them are within 3" of a slop hauler, are they functioning at maximum efficiency?

Would I have been better off with the models somewhere else on the board and not spamming reckless/dumb luck?

I mean, Ophelia can do huge damage by herself and suffer minimal damage in return, Pere wants to blow up, Francois has stilts, Remi his trusty flask and Burt doesn't dumb luck at all so between all of those, dirty cheater seems sufficient to mitigate the damage I do to my own crew.

Rami wants to Focus and Shoot, not spend his Activations doing Trusty Flask. Francois has Stilts once but ends up doing immense damage to himself not to mention that his Df is lousy and the opponent wants him gone as fast as possible. Ophelia can do huge damage but that minimal damage to herself starts to add up fast - you can easily hurt yourself for two a turn which is four damage in two turns. Having a Sloppy around to heal that is very nice. Finally, Burt is HtK so absolutely loves healing.

45 minutes ago, Sordid Strumpet said:

Mancha Roja can punch with the best of them and isn't reckless at all, lightning bugs can heal very reliably - especially with aim high boys being able to keep Francois and Mancha or whoever you chose to be your beater relatively healthy via the Yippee! Trigger even when engaged. If you then bring some self-healing pork, it still seems to me as though slop haulers, while nice, aren't necessary.

Necessary is such a strong word. I don't think that they are necessary. But they are extremely good models.

My problem with Lightning Bugs is that they are extremely card-intensive if you want them to perform reliably. Slop Haulers OTOH, with Bayou Two-Card and a no-card-needed Heal are some of the least card-intensive models in the game. For example, in the Yippee! scenario you need to have a Mask in hand or you risk hitting the Green Wrath. And you need to position near Ophelia if you wish to make use of Shoot High Boys. And note that Francois on Stilts and Mancha aren't protected by Shoot High since neither is Ht1.

[Sordid Strumpet]

You  make very good points I think they'll make it onto my list of purchases.

[D6Damager]

On 1/12/2016 at 6:22 PM, Dogmantra said:

I was talking lightning bugs in general, although I still stand by not super high damage as a reason not to spam 'em - even if you do have your glowy target and Wong to put out a bunch of damage, that's 7 - 10 stones for the model, 3 or so on upgrades (glowy, dirty cheater, stilts if francois) and 5+ for general support, so you're still only looking at 15, maaaybe 20 stones being reasonable to spend on bugs, with 10 - 15 spare for utility.

 

I agree with you . Lightning Bugs are one of the few in-faction models that ignore armor on their basic ca attack. I think this is why their damage is low, but they are still really useful. Handing out Slow is really annoying for your opponent too (unless they brought reliable condition removal).

[szendroib]

Slop haulers are must haves for Somer/Ulix summoning crews and a Kin focused Ophelia crew. But I feel like the mindset that they are a necessity comes from Wave 1 where a lot of gremlins kept hurting themself and most of them (Kin for example) had Def 4. Wave 2 introduced much more durable models and I had to realize that slop haulers were a trap just as much as they are a huge healing help. If you want to stay in their healing bubble your team becomes seriously slowed down. Personally I found that a fast and melee focused (Francois, Burt, Mancha, Gracie, etc) hit team works better in our meta than a slow gunline. Also this made my team building more flexible. I still take them when I know I will definately need them, but most of the time I take Lightning bugs instead. If it is a necessity it could worth to attak your own lesser model just to heal 2 hp on 3-4-5 other figure. It's totally unreliable on enemies unless you have a big mask in your hand. But on the flip side it has range 8 and the lightning bug could still do 2 more actions.

[Omenbringer]

On 1/21/2016 at 7:37 AM, szendroib said:

I had to realize that slop haulers were a trap just as much as they are a huge healing help. If you want to stay in their healing bubble your team becomes seriously slowed down.

Perhaps it is just because I use the Truffle Shuffle quite a bit in my games, but I have never really found the Slop Hauler as a limit to the crew's mobility in any noticeable way. A single Piglet can usually move them where you need them and also serve as a decent bodyguard for them.

Sure you can build a successful crew without them but doing so a lot of times puts you at a bit of a disadvantage (especially certain builds). There are not many Gremlins, new or old, that can really be described as durable. As Math Mathonwy points out in his post, when it comes to healing, the Slop Hauler is typically the most efficient method of achieving that.

[Clement]

4 hours ago, Omenbringer said:

Perhaps it is just because I use the Truffle Shuffle quite a bit in my games, but I have never really found the Slop Hauler as a limit to the crew's mobility in any noticeable way. A single Piglet can usually move them where you need them and also serve as a decent bodyguard for them.

I've stared at the old truffle shuffle docs for a while now and I can't wrap my brain around them in 2e.  Unless you're taking a whisperer to keep them company I don't see how the piglet can do anything other then drag the slop hauler around inside the Somer ball.  I want to believe, I do.  But at this point I have a tough time using piglets as anything other then summoned missles in my crews.  What am I missing?

[D6Damager]

8 hours ago, Clement said:

I've stared at the old truffle shuffle docs for a while now and I can't wrap my brain around them in 2e.  Unless you're taking a whisperer to keep them company I don't see how the piglet can do anything other then drag the slop hauler around inside the Somer ball.  I want to believe, I do.  But at this point I have a tough time using piglets as anything other then summoned missles in my crews.  What am I missing?

In a Somer crew + pigapult that's pretty much their use as ammo. In an Ulix crew (with the Corn Husks upgrade) they are your scheme runners. Old major is pretty ubiquitous in Ulix crews so he helps with an Eye on The Young' uns too and move them around with Nudge 'em On.

[Omenbringer]

20 hours ago, Clement said:

I've stared at the old truffle shuffle docs for a while now and I can't wrap my brain around them in 2e.  Unless you're taking a whisperer to keep them company I don't see how the piglet can do anything other then drag the slop hauler around inside the Somer ball.  I want to believe, I do.  But at this point I have a tough time using piglets as anything other then summoned missles in my crews.  What am I missing?

Well I wrote a lot of the illustrated docs on Pullmyfinger for Som'er in 1st ed, and unfortunately I haven't gotten around to updating it for M2e. What is likely causing the issue is that the article is for 1st edition and that it isn't really illustrating the "Truffle Shuffle" but the "Pig Ladder". The Truffle Shuffle is essentially nothing more than using a Piglet to Truffles a Gremlin around where you need him. The Hog Whisperer was included in 1st Ed to provide the piglets with Flight, allowing them to bypass severe terrain impacts. Now that role is filled by the Gremlin Taxidermist (still not sure why they got Never Happen in this edition instead of keeping it on the hog Whisperer).

This edition Piglets are far less controllable than they used to be since Skeeters can no longer act as controllers and the hog Whisperer is relegated to essentially Reactivating pigs.

[Math Mathonwy]

On ‎26‎.‎1‎.‎2016 at 7:47 AM, Clement said:

I've stared at the old truffle shuffle docs for a while now and I can't wrap my brain around them in 2e.  Unless you're taking a whisperer to keep them company I don't see how the piglet can do anything other then drag the slop hauler around inside the Somer ball.  I want to believe, I do.  But at this point I have a tough time using piglets as anything other then summoned missles in my crews.  What am I missing?

I've gotten quite a bit of mileage out of two Piglets and a Hog Whisperer. The latter is mostly there to keep the Piglets in check, give them Reactivate and then hit like a truck once something gets close. All in all a Hog Whisperer isn't actually a bad model even without Pigs. If, say, Guild had access to a 5-point Hog Whisperer I would be really tempted to take a few simply due to how crazy fast they are. I mean, naturally a Lightning Bug is better if you have no Pigs but it's not as if the Hog Whisperer is actively bad or anything.

Truffles is really good on the first turn to get your models into position. A Reactivating Piglet can save you a lot of Walk AP on the first turn pretty easily if you plan ahead a bit. Especially nice for Slop Haulers but also for pulling Trixie along who can then pull other Gremlins. It can also be nice to pull your models out of Melee.

But they do make nice missiles even without the Pigapult. You can have a Reactivating Piglet charge into enemies on the first turn pretty easy if you Lure it towards the enemy with Trixie. If you out-activate the enemy, give the Piglet Reactivate and heal it to full, then move it forward, have Trixie Lure it late in the round and finally Pigcharge into enemy and go into Def stance with your last AP. It can be extremely annoying to remove for some crews.