Hannah: Counterspell and Nether Flux wording

[Gabbi]

Some time ago I've asked a confirm about Librarian's Nether Fluctuation. This was mostly a confirm request, just because my opponent (who plays Von Schill) wasn't sure I was applying it correctly (i.e. ignoring printetd suits on model cards, but still wanting to make use of suits flipped from the fate deck).

Now he's going to get Hannah, I've checked the card to see what the chick does and saw that in addition to the Librarian ability (here called Flux instead of Fluctuation, don't know why) she has a Counterspell ability that seems very similar in the effect (if not in the trigger conditions) but it's very differently worded:

From Hannah card:

Counterspell: Enemy Ca Actions which target this model lose all suits printed in the Ca for the duration of the Action.

Nether Flux: Enemy models within 4 of Hannah ignore any suits associated with their Ca, Sh, and Ml stats.

It seems to me that both abilities, once their requirements are met, strip the printed suit(s) only and allow the use of the ones eventually flipped from the fate deck. Am I worng?

Now, I assure you I do not want to start another raw vs rai discussion, but the very different wording between the two abilities sure will bring arguments with friend who wasn't very convinced of my good faith in first place.

Could someone give me some reasonable explanation of why one ability states "lose all suits printed in" while the other says "ignore any suits associated with" ?
I ask because if friend will argue that the first one is clearly limited to suits on card and so the second one should include flipped suits (as he was claiming in first place) I will be unable to reply.
 

Thanks in advance.

[Dogmantra]

Aside from the obvious difference that Hannah affects enemies in an aura and also affects Sh and Ml, it's the same ability.

They both say that you lose the suit that is somehow attached to the Ca (or Ml/Sh) value, regardless of wording. Cards, Soulstones and any suit-granting auras or abilities are not printed in the Ca/Ml/Sh value or associated with it beyond being added together to create the final duel total.

The best explanation for the different wording is that writing & balancing rules for so many models is a very time consuming job and the Wyrd folks prioritise things other than consistent wording. Thankfully in this case, they both work in the same way.

[Gabbi]

 Thanks for reply.

Aside from the obvious difference that Hannah affects enemies in an aura and also affects Sh and Ml, it's the same ability.

Wait, Hannah has both abilities, Librarian just Nether Flux/Fluctuation.
Anyway I get what you mean.

They both say that you lose the suit that is somehow attached to the Ca (or Ml/Sh) value, regardless of wording. Cards, Soulstones and any suit-granting auras or abilities are not printed in the Ca/Ml/Sh value or associated with it beyond being added together to create the final duel total.

Point is the definition of associated. I read "associated with a stat" as "printed next to it on the card", friend argued that since an action is of the given stat, all suits in the total are associated with it, thus should be ignored.

The best explanation for the different wording is that writing & balancing rules for so many models is a very time consuming job and the Wyrd folks prioritise things other than consistent wording. Thankfully in this case, they both work in the same way.

That's not an explanation, that's a justification. I've read a blog post (by Justin, if I recall correctly) and I understand real world and manpower related problems.
Fine with it. Point is I cannot use it to support my point. I think I'll simply print out this page and bring it with me

 

[santaclaws01]

This has come up before and I still do think there's a difference. Inconsistencies in wording aren't easy to ignore when both abilities in question are on the same model also. I think Associated is any suit printed as well as ones they gain from abilities, so for example Oxfordian Mages get s for being near other Academics. They would still have those s for Counterspell, but not with Nether Flux.

[Gabbi]

 

This has come up before and I still do think there's a difference. Inconsistencies in wording aren't easy to ignore when both abilities in question are on the same model also. I think Associated is any suit printed as well as ones they gain from abilities, so for example Oxfordian Mages get s for being near other Academics. They would still have those s for Counterspell, but not with Nether Flux.

Oh, thank you. That would be an excellent explanation, and would justify the different wording.

Now, since you're writing "I think" I understand it's not an official ruling, isn't it?
Anyway, I'll adopt your interpretation until/if further and/or more official explanations are given.

Thank you!

 

Edited November 23, 2015 by Gabbi
added a quote, in case post order will be scrambled by voting

[santaclaws01]

 

This has come up before and I still do think there's a difference. Inconsistencies in wording aren't easy to ignore when both abilities in question are on the same model also. I think Associated is any suit printed as well as ones they gain from abilities, so for example Oxfordian Mages get s for being near other Academics. They would still have those s for Counterspell, but not with Nether Flux.

Oh, thank you. That would be an excellent explanation, and would justify the different wording.

Now, since you're writing "I think" I understand it's not an official ruling, isn't it?
Anyway, I'll adopt your interpretation until/if further and/or more official explanations are given.

Thank you!

 

Correct, it's not official and there's nothing in the rules one way or the other. My interpretation pretty much entirely hinges on both of them being on the same model, so it's harder for me to pass it off as just inconsistent wording due to different editors.

[Gabbi]

Correct, it's not official and there's nothing in the rules one way or the other. My interpretation pretty much entirely hinges on both of them being on the same model, so it's harder for me to pass it off as just inconsistent wording due to different editors.

I agree. Plus, it really makes sense.

[MrDeathTrout]

I agree "associated" is very vague and would really like official clarification on what it means.  I also agree that differnt wording on the same card makes me lean in the direction that they do different things, but I don't think that is always the case.  Look at the Katanaka Sniper.  I've underlined the pertinent parts.  Different wording, but I believe identical effect on the same card.

 

(1) Ancestral Katana (Ml 5 / Rst: Df / Rg: y2): Target suffers 2/4/5 damage. This Action gains + to the Attack flip.
(1) Clockwork Rifle (Sh 5 / Rst: Df / Rg: z14): Target suffers 2/3/5 damage. This Attack Action receives +. When this Attack Action gains the benefits of the Focused Condition, increase its range to z28.

[santaclaws01]

I agree "associated" is very vague and would really like official clarification on what it means.  I also agree that differnt wording on the same card makes me lean in the direction that they do different things, but I don't think that is always the case.  Look at the Katanaka Sniper.  I've underlined the pertinent parts.  Different wording, but I believe identical effect on the same card.

 

(1) Ancestral Katana (Ml 5 / Rst: Df / Rg: y2): Target suffers 2/4/5 damage. This Action gains + to the Attack flip.
(1) Clockwork Rifle (Sh 5 / Rst: Df / Rg: z14): Target suffers 2/3/5 damage. This Attack Action receives +. When this Attack Action gains the benefits of the Focused Condition, increase its range to z28.

The difference being that both of those actions existed before the Sniper was released, and Wyrd doesn't like changing action text for the same actions across models.

[Gabbi]

Well, sure not the best thread to discuss this, but with the Arsenal Boxes phasing out, I would gladly see cards available through some print-on-demand service, updated to latest faq/errata and with streamlined and consistent text/wording.

/OT

[solkan]

I agree "associated" is very vague and would really like official clarification on what it means.  I also agree that differnt wording on the same card makes me lean in the direction that they do different things, but I don't think that is always the case.  Look at the Katanaka Sniper.  I've underlined the pertinent parts.  Different wording, but I believe identical effect on the same card.

 

(1) Ancestral Katana (Ml 5 / Rst: Df / Rg: y2): Target suffers 2/4/5 damage. This Action gains + to the Attack flip.
(1) Clockwork Rifle (Sh 5 / Rst: Df / Rg: z14): Target suffers 2/3/5 damage. This Attack Action receives +. When this Attack Action gains the benefits of the Focused Condition, increase its range to z28.

The difference being that both of those actions existed before the Sniper was released, and Wyrd doesn't like changing action text for the same actions across models.

So it's the same situation with Nether Flux and Counterspell.

Because Counterspell is on eight cards (checking the core rulebook and Crossroads), and Netherflux is on two cards.  The same wording is used for Netherflux on Hannah and for Nether Fluxuation on the Friekorps Librarian:

Nether Flux: Enemy models within 4 of Hannah ignore any suits associated with their Ca, Sh, and Ml stats.

 

Nether Fluctuation: Enemy models within 4 of this model ignore any suits associated with Ca, Sh, and Ml stats.

Pronoun substitution doesn't make those two abilities different.

As a tangent note, the phrase "associated with" is used in the Influenced effect applied by the Governor's Proxy:

Influenced: This model loses any suit associated with it’s Ca and Wp.

 

[Guy in Suit]

Associated to me means anything coming in to the duel, included suits added by other models abilities, vs. literally printed on the card.

 

The example that came up in my game was Lenny granting Rams to other gremlins.  That would be lost via 'associated' but remain via 'printed on card'.

[santaclaws01]

I agree "associated" is very vague and would really like official clarification on what it means.  I also agree that differnt wording on the same card makes me lean in the direction that they do different things, but I don't think that is always the case.  Look at the Katanaka Sniper.  I've underlined the pertinent parts.  Different wording, but I believe identical effect on the same card.

 

(1) Ancestral Katana (Ml 5 / Rst: Df / Rg: y2): Target suffers 2/4/5 damage. This Action gains + to the Attack flip.
(1) Clockwork Rifle (Sh 5 / Rst: Df / Rg: z14): Target suffers 2/3/5 damage. This Attack Action receives +. When this Attack Action gains the benefits of the Focused Condition, increase its range to z28.

The difference being that both of those actions existed before the Sniper was released, and Wyrd doesn't like changing action text for the same actions across models.

So it's the same situation with Nether Flux and Counterspell.

Because Counterspell is on eight cards (checking the core rulebook and Crossroads), and Netherflux is on two cards.  The same wording is used for Netherflux on Hannah and for Nether Fluxuation on the Friekorps Librarian:

Nether Flux: Enemy models within 4 of Hannah ignore any suits associated with their Ca, Sh, and Ml stats.

 

Nether Fluctuation: Enemy models within 4 of this model ignore any suits associated with Ca, Sh, and Ml stats.

 

Except Katanaka Sniper is Wave 2, and Hannah is Wave 1.