How does getting killed work?

[Myyrä]

The rulebook says:

If the model is reduced to 0 or fewer Wounds it is immediately removed from the game as killed.

Which is pretty weird, because model can't be reduced to fewer Wounds than 0 (FAQ), and it also isn't in fact immediately removed.

After damaging: These effects happen after step 5 and only if the target suffers 1 or more damage from the Action. These effects are resolved before the damaged model is removed if it was killed by the damage.

This leads to all kinds of confusion with abilities and triggers that take place around the time of models death.

An example:
Jacob Lynch is attacked by Blessed of December. Lynch declares Hold 'em trigger after Blessed has cheated it's attack flip high enough to hit Lynch. Lynch is then killed by the damage. Would Lynch be removed from the game before Hold 'em trigger could be resolved causing Blessed to avoid the damage?

Df/Wp () Hold'Em: If an Attacker Cheats an Attack Action against this model, the Attacker suffers 2 damage after resolving the Attack Action.

Does the situation change if Blessed declared Into Shadow trigger (which is resolved after damaging)? Lynch wouldn't be removed from the game before both triggers are resolved because defender's triggers are resolved first.

My actual question is this:
Would it be more accurate to say that model killed by an attack action is not removed until that action has been resolved?

 

Edited November 7, 2015 by Myyrä

[Math Mathonwy]

My actual question is this:
Would it be more accurate to say that model killed by an attack action is not removed until that action has been resolved?

In that case you would be unable to Push through the model, for example, if your Attack or a Trigger provides you with a Push.

Certainly an interesting question, actually!

[Myyrä]

My actual question is this:
Would it be more accurate to say that model killed by an attack action is not removed until that action has been resolved?

In that case you would be unable to Push through the model, for example, if your Attack or a Trigger provides you with a Push.

Certainly an interesting question, actually!

If that trigger is after damaging trigger like most of them are, you wouldn't be able to do it either way.

Edit: That gave me an idea for another good specific example though:
Mei Feng kills something with Jackhammer Kick and no triggers are declared. Does she push into base contact with the target model or not? (Timing of different parts of attack actions might warrant their own thread though.)
 

[solkan]

I think Jackhammer Kick's going to be one of the FAQs-waiting-to-happen cases, because of that "even if" clause:

Target suffers 2/3/6 damage. Then, this model pushes directly into base contact with the target, even if this Attack Action fails or was taken as a Disengaging Strike.

So you've got a push with effectively a "After anything" trigger (choose any one of the four listed "After ____" triggers, as necessary). 

That's worth at least a pair of 8's, if you're betting on getting an even bigger exception FAQ'd in. 

[solkan]

On the less exceptional cases, I think being able to nail a list of timing errors to the rules forum door might be a good start to getting things straightened out. 

I mean, "after damaging" happens after Step 5 unless you kill your target in Step 5 then it gets resolved during Step 5 (since that's when the model dies, and the instructions in the 'after damaging' trigger say to resolve the effect before removing the model. 

That's a bit of a mess that would be nice to have a more consistent resolution for.  But there are already FAQ entries concerning the timing paradoxes:

6) Q: Can Sonnia kill a target with Flameburst, trigger Consuming Flame, and then use the Violation of Magic Ability to summon a Witchling Stalker? What happens first, Consuming Flame or Violation of Magic?

A: Violation of Magic happens first so Sonnia would not be able to summon a Witchling Stalker. Violation of Magic occurs “when the target is reduced to 0 Wounds.” This would happen during Step 5 of the duel process (Determine Success) as results are applied during this step (Core Rulebook pg. 33). Consuming Flame is an After Damaging Trigger, which occurs after Step 5 (Core Rulebook pg. 32). So Consuming Flame would not have given the target Burning before Violation of Magic happens and no Witchling Stalker may be summoned (unless, of course, the target already had Burning from another source).

15) Q: If a model has an “After Damaging” Trigger which allows it to push/move and it kills a model with Explosive Demise, can it use its Trigger to push/move away from the model it killed before taking damage from Explosive Demise?

A: No. Explosive Demise happens when the model is killed, which would be during Step 5 of the duel process (Determine Success, Core Rulebook pg. 33) and After Damaging Triggers occur after Step 5 (Core Rulebook pg. 32).

 

I might be wrong, but I don't think either of these FAQs mention the fact that an "After damaging" effect should be able to happen during Step 5 if the damage is fatal:

•After damaging: These effects happen after Step 5 and only if the target suffers 1 or more damage from the Action. These effects are resolved before the damaged model is removed if it was killed by the damage.

Edited November 7, 2015 by solkan

[Myyrä]

I think Jackhammer Kick's going to be one of the FAQs-waiting-to-happen cases, because of that "even if" clause:

Target suffers 2/3/6 damage. Then, this model pushes directly into base contact with the target, even if this Attack Action fails or was taken as a Disengaging Strike.

So you've got a push with effectively a "After anything" trigger (choose any one of the four listed "After ____" triggers, as necessary). 

That's worth at least a pair of 8's, if you're betting on getting an even bigger exception FAQ'd in. 

There are also several other attack actions that do at least two different things. We already know that all the things in the attack's description are not always resolved simultaneously courtesy of Wong's Lightning Jump FAQ. It would be kind of nice to know if it is the same for effects that don't deal damage, and how models dying factors into all that.

[Bengt]

I might be wrong, but I don't think either of these FAQs mention the fact that an "After damaging" effect should be able to happen during Step 5 if the damage is fatal:

•After damaging: These effects happen after Step 5 and only if the target suffers 1 or more damage from the Action. These effects are resolved before the damaged model is removed if it was killed by the damage.

Resolving effects early instead of delaying removing the model feels like it could convolute some interactions.

[Myyrä]

I might be wrong, but I don't think either of these FAQs mention the fact that an "After damaging" effect should be able to happen during Step 5 if the damage is fatal:

•After damaging: These effects happen after Step 5 and only if the target suffers 1 or more damage from the Action. These effects are resolved before the damaged model is removed if it was killed by the damage.

Resolving effects early instead of delaying removing the model feels like it could convolute some interactions.

It would cause them to be resolved before defender's triggers for example. Unless you move the defender's triggers up as well, in which case, what's the point?