Apparently I need help figuring out M2E...

[Angus Khan]

Hello fellow Arcanists!

I played extensively in first edition, and even held my own in several tournaments.  I may not have been the best player ever, but I was certainly respectable.

After several years, I'm finally getting back into Malifaux and trying to learn M2E... which is going poorly.  I've played 6 games so far, and lost every single one pretty badly.  I've tried all three of my Arcanist masters (Ramos, Colette, and Rasputina) as well as Pandora, and just can't seem to make anything 'click.'

When I try and kill my opponent's key models to make way for scoring, I lose, because my opponent has been scoring while I've been killing.  When I try and focus on schemes, with minimal/less killing, my opponent slaughters my models before they have a chance to score.  I realize, ideally, you should balance schemes and killing... and I try to, I really do.  Maybe my scheme selections are just bad?  (I've read the Pull My Finger articles on all of my models, and my opponent's most commonly taken ones, too.  Hypothetically I have any idea at all what I'm doing and what schemes to bring with particular models.)  Maybe crew selection changed subtly between editions and I'm just not understanding? (I do stick with themed crews a lot...)

Maybe Lynch is just really good at shutting down arcanists?  (The only player in my area owns just the lynch box + 3 samurai, and pretty much runs those exclusively.)

Long story short: I apparently have no idea what I'm doing, and I wish I knew why.  I know this is a vague question...and I'm sorry about that...but sadly I don't know exactly what I'm asking.  I just want to know what I'm doing wrong.  Any help?

[dgraz]

Lynch can be pretty brutal in the hands of a decent player...even with just minimal experience he can lay some smack down.

You said you've played about 6 games with 4 different masters.....I think that's your first mistake. Pick one and play 6 games with them (I suggest Ramos or 'Tina....Colette is a little trickier). Last edition there was plenty of synergy, but some of the game was a little looser. Now, there is at least as much synergy (if not more) and things are much tighter...only 5 turns and an extreme reduction in 'free' AP (melee expert, nimble, etc)....there's definitely a learning curve to putting together how your crew works within the time constraints.

Try that and see where it gets you. Worse comes to worse, ask to switch crews with your opponent....you play Jakob (by then you should have a decent idea of what he's doing and when) and let them play 'Tina or Ramos and see how they do it. I don't believe that Lynch is a "hard-counter" to Arcanists.

[Kadeton]

Lynch is undoubtedly a strong Master, but that's in the general sense - he doesn't enjoy any particular advantage over Arcanists. (Ramos, Tina and Colette are all also very strong Masters.)

I suspect, as dgraz suggests, that the main advantage your opponent has over you is being well-practiced with one Master. When you start out learning the game (and there are sufficient differences from M1E that you are essentially learning a new game, especially if it's been a few years) you don't have a good handle on the areas in which the various elements of your crew are strongest and why. That makes it much harder to see which pieces you should be sending after schemes, which into the fray, and when. Get more familiar with how your crews play, and you'll be on a more even footing with your opponent - or even at an advantage, since he'll be using the same crew (whose weaknesses you've learned to exploit) while you'll be able to switch Masters to best deal with the scenario.

Basically, don't be afraid to lose games. Losing is how you learn to win.

[decker_cky]

Yeah....there's a learning curve figuring how different masters need to behave to win. Heck....when playing a master you're familiar with, it's very tough to face a new master for the first time.

[mythicFOX]

Some good advice above.

Right at the start of M2e Lynch was one of the best masters in the game and was very prevalent in the UK meta. I had a lot of tournament success (partly) because I was playing a lot of Ramos, who has a decent game against Lynch.  So I don't think he's a hard counter to us as a faction.

One quick point, your opponent is using the current errata for Lynch aren't they? There's not much errata in M2e but Lynch did get a bit of a tweak.

If it would help maybe you could let us know what crew you would pick, and schemes you'd prioritise, in the following game against your regular opponent? That may help us see if there's any obvious advice we can give you for crew / scheme selection.

Strategy:  Reconnoitre. Schemes: Protect Territory, Bodyguard, Cursed Object, Deliver a Message, and ALitS. Deploy: Corner.

[Angus Khan]

If it would help maybe you could let us know what crew you would pick, and schemes you'd prioritize, in the following game against your regular opponent? That may help us see if there's any obvious advice we can give you for crew / scheme selection.

Strategy:  Reconnoiter. Schemes: Protect Territory, Bodyguard, Cursed Object, Deliver a Message, and ALitS. Deploy: Corner.

Hmmm....

I would take the schemes: Protect Territory and Bodyguard (Angelica), and I would reveal Protect Territory.

(of the models I have) I would likely take:

• Colette (6 SS Cache)
  •  Nothing Up My Sleeve
  • A Lady's Secret
  • Practiced Production
• Angelica
  • Imbued Protection
• Performer
• Performer
• Mannequin
• Malifaux Raptor
• Coryphee
• Coryphee

As for my rationale:

Firstly I like having max (or near max) cache with arcanist masters... Just a personal preference because I use SS heavily. 

As for upgrades, Nothing Up My Sleeve gives me cards or SS... win/win. (also, why I liked Colette back in first ed)  A Lady's Secret, and Trap Doors both allow for some terrific mobility for her crew, which is particularly useful in Reconnoiter.  Imbued Protection is just a great upgrade, and Df 7 on Angelica will make sure she stays alive for a good amount of time. (for Bodyguard)

Angelica is very useful for her pushes, making an already fast crew faster.  Also, the pushes will (hopefully) help get my models out of the auras of Lynches Terrifying minions. (which is a problem more often than you would think)

The Performers are there to be basic minions, but also to drop scheme markers in combat, and even remove enemy scheme markers.  Hopefully Colette will be bouncing them around the board, so they can force enemies to spread out a little and continue re-deploying scheme markers for Reconnoiter.

Having a Manneguin around is a useful tool for the above, plus a decent panic button for Colette.

The Malifaux Raptor is there to fly to a distant corner, then be the target of Trap Doors to move a scheme marker wherever I want, (just about)

Lastly, the Coryphee are there both for combat potential, but mostly because they are fast enough they can bounce around and keep up with the showgirls who Colette is using Disappearing Act on.  If necessary, the Coryphee could also dash off to a distant table corner and plop down a scheme marker, or tag team an enemy scheme runner.

Edited September 8, 2015 by Angus Khan

[dgraz]

Ramos is probably 'go to' for Recon. You're already probably giving up Strat points with that list....you've only got 5 models that can count for it (once the Coryphee combine). Ramos can summon the models you need for Recon.

You're talking about using a Raptor or the Coryphee to 'run off and drop Scheme Markers'...for what? You have Protect Territory which only needs to be 6" from your DZ and no other Scheme Marker Schemes.

I'd probably take a typical Ramos list but throw in Cassandra instead of Howard. Cassandra is kind've a 'go to' Arcanist Bodyguard target....if your opponent has been playing for a while he probably knows that. So I might consider taking Deliver a Message instead....he'll assume she's there for Bodyguard, but you could throw her in and Deliver instead....or you could just stick with Bodyguard on her.

This game doesn't require much killing, you need to survive to gain points. Summoning Spiders to block the enemy and being cagey with Ramos and Cassandra is all you really need to do.

[Angus Khan]

Ramos is probably 'go to' for Recon. You're already probably giving up Strat points with that list....you've only got 5 models that can count for it (once the Coryphee combine). Ramos can summon the models you need for Recon.

You're talking about using a Raptor or the Coryphee to 'run off and drop Scheme Markers'...for what? You have Protect Territory which only needs to be 6" from your DZ and no other Scheme Marker Schemes.

I'd probably take a typical Ramos list but throw in Cassandra instead of Howard. Cassandra is kind've a 'go to' Arcanist Bodyguard target....if your opponent has been playing for a while he probably knows that. So I might consider taking Deliver a Message instead....he'll assume she's there for Bodyguard, but you could throw her in and Deliver instead....or you could just stick with Bodyguard on her.

This game doesn't require much killing, you need to survive to gain points. Summoning Spiders to block the enemy and being cagey with Ramos and Cassandra is all you really need to do.

Fair enough.

This is exactly why I posted my original question. Thank you for the pointers!

 

One question, though: What is a "typical Ramos list"...?

[dgraz]

You're welcome.

Actually, the more I think about it I'd probably forget Cassandra and go for the Mech Rider with Bodyguard. Keep it safe the first couple turns until it's defensive Trigger is powered up...then just summon Metal Gamin every turn.

I don't really play him so I'm not certain of an actual list, but I'm thinking.....Ramos w/ Elect. Summoning, Under Pressure, and either Arcane Res or Field Generator or Seize the Day...........Mech Rider w/ Imb. Energies.....Joss w/ Open Current......an Electrical Creation (to kill turn 1 for Scrap)......maybe a Metal Gamin to start....whatever other filler you want. (I'm sure a real Ramos player can help you here.)

Ramos summons at least two spiders a turn just to get in the way and gum things up (and of course score for Recon) and the Mech Rider summons a Metal Gamin from turn 3 on.

It's obvious from your list that you definitely need to get the cobwebs off. The best way to do that is to stick with one master....learn their core crew (what they can do, what Strats/Schemes their good or bad at)....then start swapping out models and trying different combos with that master, things you think might be better for the things the other models were weakest at. Once you've got a grip on all that, then you can think about switching masters.

[mythicFOX]

If it were me going into the game I'd play the following;

• Ramos (Arcane Reservoir, Combat Mechanic, 6ss cache) 7ss
• Joss (Imbued Energies, Bleeding Edge Tech) 12ss
• Johan (Imbued Energies) 8ss
• Large Arachnid 6ss
• Performer 5ss
• Rail Worker 5ss
• Metal Gamin 4ss
• Mobile Toolkit 3ss

Toolkit is your scrap for initial summoning. BET on Joss gives you the  to Ca aura, remember everything Hungering Darkness does is a cast. The whole core is survivable and most of it can be healed by Ramos / Johan / Joss.  I've gone with the Rail Worker / Large Arachnid combo over Howard to keep the numbers up.

Single Arachnids are great to tie up Hungering Darkness, especially if your opponent has taken the Huggy can't dies upgrade, rather than the extra attack. Performer is there to snipe at scheme markers and Siren Call your own guys out of combat as and when.  Large Arachnid can also remove enemy scheme markers. 

With Ramos I'd take Cursed Object here, spiders can hand it out rather than flailing with their claws. Plus if your stuff gets Cursed you can blow it up yourself to deny points. 

Hope this helps!

[Angus Khan]

 

..Toolkit is your scrap for initial summoning...

Why the toolkit, and not the electrical creation?  In the past I've had the electrical creation walk twice, then have Ramos magnetism to it, killing it. (which I rather liked doing, since it minimized the number of Ramos' actions required to destroy it for parts)

[dgraz]

Bleeding Edge Tech....I knew I was forgetting something important.

I assume the Toolkit allows you to use Joss to kill it for the extra Scrap?

[mythicFOX]

The Toolkit is 1ss cheaper, but needs to be killed by Joss, you get two scrap but not the speed boost for Ramos that way.  Either works, I use one or the other depending on the build. There's not a lot in it.

If you're playing against Ressers take the EC every time though, it's Wp10 makes it tough to Lure away.

[Durza]

You could also have Joss shoot the Electrical creation to get 2 scrap.

[Fog]

Here's how I like to build Ramos:

Arcanists Crew - 50 - Scrap

Ramos -- 6 Pool
 +Arcane Reservoir [2]
 +Field Generator [2]
 +Under Pressure [2]

Brass Arachnid [4]
Electrical Creation [4]
Howard Langston [12]
 +Imbued Energies [1]
Johan [7]
 +Imbued Energies [1]
Joss [10]
 +Bleeding Edge Tech [1]
 +Imbued Energies [1]

Depending on the specifics of a game I'll either use magnetism or Joss to kill the creation. Having the option of using either is helpful. I'll stone for cards turns 1 and 2, hopefully getting off a triple summon. I'll jockey for position turn 1, and turn two, cards permitting, I'll pass out reactivate a few times after out activating my opponent with spiders. Joss and Hank get wherever they need to be with 5 and 7 ap respectively. I'll take out opposing models that need killing and the remainder of the game turns into an overwhelming sea of spiders.