Rurouni Benshin Posted July 9, 2015 Report Share Posted July 9, 2015 Hi all, So I recently picked up a Latigo Posse crew box, and got to play it once. The game went very well for me, to my elation. However, it just so happened that shortly after my game, I started hearing about how OP the crew was. Being as I've only played once with her crew, I just thought "well sure she's good, but I'm sure there're other crews that are effective against her". So in a similar fashion as I did with Mei Feng on the TT thread of Faction Discussion, I'd like to do the same for Perdita. The game I played was 50 ss in size, and against Hoffman. Strategy: Reckoning My Schemes: Make Them Suffer, Bodyguard (Santiago) Perdita: Shooting expert, in every way possible. Only way she'd be more powerful is if her range was longer, but even at a 14" range, I'd say that's as good as any will get (for a Pistol anyway). I took "Aura Ancestral" for the extra WP buff, "Os Veo" for Bullet Proof +2 (mostly), and "Trick Shooting" because I knew I was going up against Hoffman. "AA" turned out to be irrelevant, but I wouldn't go so far as to say it was wasted, since it probably deterred whether Perdita was targeted by WP duels. "Os Veo" didn't earn a whole lot either because not once was I shot at. Maybe against a "shootier" crew it'd have been more apparent how useful the upgrade would be. Planted her within 12" of the opposition and sat there with "Finger On The Trigger" on. Needless to say, I wasn't shot at very often for those first 3 turns. Enslaved Nephilim: Arguably my most valuable model for the first 2 turns. His "Shackled" action was largely responsible for moving Perdita and a couple of other models quickly up the board. Heck, he even got to (0) Action push Abuela Ortega. Abuela Ortega: When used correctly in tandem with the other models of the group, she'll never have to take a Walk action. Sh 7 with her auto trigger is beastly. Managed to get her close enough to Perdita to help prevent Charge actions made on her, but the problem never really came up. Managed to cheat with the Red Joker on turn 3 with her gun, catching 4 models between the 2 blasts (Hoffman actually getting tagged twice). If I were to pick the "most OP model" out of the crew, it would probably be her. Francisco Ortega: Had to walk him across the board for the first turn before getting him into melee. "Finesse" helped deter my opponent from getting into melee with him, but he managed to escape melee range in favor of shooting instead. Forgot to use "El Mayor" for the last few turns, but at that point it was honestly irrelevant. Santiago Ortega: Didn't get him into shooting range until Turn 3, but not for lack of trying. Getting him into Melee combat on Turn 5 was probably the one time I needed him most to take out a Guardian construct, with the help of companion'ing Francisco. Hard to analyze his ability since the rest of my crew managed to do the majority of the work. Gave him "Hair Trigger", but never got to use it. Maybe next time. Nino Ortega: Didn't have to deploy very far away from my own zone to benefit from the Enslaved Nephilim's "Shackled" ability, but he was worth every bit his points as well. Since the schemes weren't heavily based on Scheme Markers, his "Spotter" ability wasn't that relevant, but I could imagine it being pretty bad, especially when he's got a bird's eye view of the board, and Francisco and Santiago charging up. Pistolero de Latigo: Used 2 of them in my game, and they were worth every SS I invested. Using the Enslaved Nephilim, I was able to push them far enough towards my other crew members so that they could benefit from "Look Out!". They were basically my last models to activate, doing their best to target models that already went. Overall very good minions. Game Result: I won, 9-3. Didn't lose a single model. Took a total of 5 wounds, between Perdita, Francisco and a Pistolero. Missed out on 1 point for Reckoning because I failed to kill 2 models on Turn 2. Overall analysis: Yeah... I can see how this crew is pretty powerful, but like I said before, it was just one game. That being said, what would be an effective list to take against Perdita's crew? She's got her obvious strengths, and I get the impression that with the right defensive upgrades, her crew can accomplish just about any Strategy and Scheme. So I guess what I'm asking is, if my opposition knew I was bringing Perdita to a game, what should I expect to give me the most trouble? Lastly, what's everyone's thoughts on Papa Loco? I didn't take him, in favor of having 2 Pistoleros instead. He's weaker defensively, compared to the rest of his crew, but his MI Attacks are beastly. His "Hold This" ability seems very powerful too, especially if paired with Francisco. I imagine the 2 of them rushing up the board would be a challenging task to beat as well. Either way, please share your thoughts. Thanks! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
admiralvorkraft Posted July 10, 2015 Report Share Posted July 10, 2015 i have a strict(ish) "No Family" policy in my Guild lists - mostly because I mangle the pronunciation. As a whole the Family is good, great even, at doing what they do. Of course that's a pretty straightforward game of mutual support and murder. If someone knows how they work they can come apart pretty quickly; kill Frank, kill the totem, try and blow Papa up on his own people. If you want to be really nasty take Death Marshals instead of the Pistolero's and Papa instead of Santiago. Frank and Papa drop their buffs on Perdita turn one and go hide in Boxes. Perdita charges in and murders everything for a turn or two until the Death Marshals catch up and drop their payload. Then again, Hoffman can puppet Langston and a Peacekeeper into position to nimble->flurry no later than turn two which is probably the most devastating Alpha strike the Guild can muster... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dirial Posted July 10, 2015 Report Share Posted July 10, 2015 My thoughts can pretty much all be found in the respective Wiki pages of Perdita and her family. If you have specific questions beyond that, I'll be happy to help. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
admiralvorkraft Posted July 10, 2015 Report Share Posted July 10, 2015 From the results it really doesn't sound like Benshin needs help... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rurouni Benshin Posted July 10, 2015 Author Report Share Posted July 10, 2015 i have a strict(ish) "No Family" policy in my Guild lists - mostly because I mangle the pronunciation. As a whole the Family is good, great even, at doing what they do. Of course that's a pretty straightforward game of mutual support and murder. If someone knows how they work they can come apart pretty quickly; kill Frank, kill the totem, try and blow Papa up on his own people. If you want to be really nasty take Death Marshals instead of the Pistolero's and Papa instead of Santiago. Frank and Papa drop their buffs on Perdita turn one and go hide in Boxes. Perdita charges in and murders everything for a turn or two until the Death Marshals catch up and drop their payload. Then again, Hoffman can puppet Langston and a Peacekeeper into position to nimble->flurry no later than turn two which is probably the most devastating Alpha strike the Guild can muster... Still learning how to use Guild at the moment, but that combo with the Death Marshals sounds pretty nasty for sure. Thanks! My thoughts can pretty much all be found in the respective Wiki pages of Perdita and her family. If you have specific questions beyond that, I'll be happy to help. Awesome, I'll definitely check it out later. From the results it really doesn't sound like Benshin needs help... lol, thank you for the vote of confidence. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rurouni Benshin Posted July 22, 2015 Author Report Share Posted July 22, 2015 Hi again everyone, So I've got a couple of questions I was hoping you could help clarify for me, specifically about the upgrades that are available to Perdita and her crew. I'll go one at a time with each one. Please feel free to comment and critique as you please. "Os Veo": Stubborn seems a little situational, and unnecessary (until it's absolutely necessary), but Bullet Proof +2 would definitely help deter people from shooting at her, especially when she has "Finger on the Trigger" active. For 2 ss, this would be an upgrade I would only take if I suspect a list that would be targeting her Wp a lot. "Trick Shooting": This I'm tempted to take every time I play her, since Cover is something that comes up just about every game. Being able to ignore Armor and Incorporeal just makes it all that much better. Well worth it's 2 ss. "Aura Ancestral": This is the one that confused me. My question is: Does "See the Unseen" allow me to target into melees without randomizing? Does it allow me to ignore Horror Duels or Manipulative? If someone could help me clarify, that'd be great. Otherwise, for 1 ss just to get a +2 to Wp is pretty good. I can't imagine when she'd never be within 8" and LOS of a "Family" model, unless I purposely don't take any. "Wade In": Haven't used this one yet on Francisco, but giving him Hard to Kill at the cost of 1 ss is pretty good. I don't see myself healing all too much, since Finesse is so much better of a (0) action for him. "Tormenta De Plomo": I imagine this would be perfect for a Strategy like Turf War or Squatters Rights. I'd be tempted to put it on Nino, but I think Perdita would be the best person to put it on. Having the extra AP for mobility or "Finger on the Trigger" wouldn't be bad. "Diestro": Useful if you're not taking Santiago or Perdita (that is if Aura Ancestral does what I think it does...). Otherwise, I don't see myself spending 3 ss on Francisco or Papa Loco for them to charge into combat, risking being shot at. "Hermanas de Armas": Probably best for Nino, but I'm not completely sold on it. As a (0) action push, it's good, but I don't see how often this could come up where it's needed, especially when I already have the Enslaved Nephilim. It'd be most useful at the beginning probably, to help get more of my models up the board, but after Turn 1, I think I'd have been happier with the +1 ss to my cache. "Hair Trigger": Took this with Santiago in the first game I played, but never got to use it. 1 ss for Rapid Fire on him sounds too tempting to pass, and I'd be willing to give it another try for him, if I had the soulstones to spare. Would anyone recommend putting it on anyone else though? Abuela Ortega maybe? Thanks for your help, everyone! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dirial Posted July 22, 2015 Report Share Posted July 22, 2015 Os Veo and Trick Shooting: Generally right you are, I think. Aura: No, randomization is not a duel. Terrifying and Manipulative are, as is Challenge, by the way. Wade In: Amazingly good, but I only use the heal when Franc is nowhere near melee or activates late in the turn. Diestro: There are two downsides to this: It's really expensive and they errata'd it not to work on Dita. That's it. Try it some time on Franc. It's amazing. Hermanos: Very corner case on Nino (he is too slow). Good on Santiago or Franc. Hair Trigger: Santiago and Nino are both good with this. Tormenta de Plomo: I don't like it. Too easy to avoid for a (2). I'd put it on Santiago if anyone. He has nothing better to do when he's stuck in melee. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rurouni Benshin Posted July 22, 2015 Author Report Share Posted July 22, 2015 Thanks, D! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Myyrä Posted July 22, 2015 Report Share Posted July 22, 2015 I'd take Os Veo mostly against Guild or Gremlins for that bulletproof. Perdita already has such a high Wp that she is almost immune to attacks targeting it anyways.Trick Shooting is mandatory. Period.Aura ancestral doesn't affect randomization because randomization isn't a duel. It works against manipulative and terrifying. That +2Wp is good for other family models when facing Ressers, Outcasts or Neverborn.Wade In is mandatory, and the heal is surprisingly good. Finesse isn't much good if you are activating late in the turn so you are likely to use the heal a few times per game.Tormenta De Plomo doesn't seem useful at all. I could see taking it on Abuela, but that's pretty much it.Diestro is good but too expensive for my tastes. Franc is the best model to carry it, but he isn't quite durable enough that I would entrust him with 3ss upgrade.Hermanos De Armas is pretty good. I usually take it on Franc if I'm playing him with Sonnia or Justice. In Perdita crew it is left out or given to Santiago though I suppose Franc could take it even then.I would only give Hair Trigger to Nino, unless bringing a Watcher to remove cover from models before having Santiago unload on them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rurouni Benshin Posted July 22, 2015 Author Report Share Posted July 22, 2015 This is all great advice! Thank you everyone! Out of curiosity though, would anyone recommend any of the General Upgrades for them? If so, which ones? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Myyrä Posted July 22, 2015 Report Share Posted July 22, 2015 Out of curiosity though, would anyone recommend any of the General Upgrades for them? If so, which ones?Witched bullet for Perdita if you suspect you need to kill the enemy Master. Badge of Office for when you might be facing something that can and wants to kill Perdita. Plant Evidence can be used too if you suspect you will need it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rurouni Benshin Posted July 23, 2015 Author Report Share Posted July 23, 2015 Badge of Office seems like a great choice when Assassinate is on the table. I doubt I'd take it in any other situation though. Witch Bullet wouldn't be bad if I didn't need to sac it to use it. Plus she has a Witch Bullet trigger already. I'll play around with those and see. Thanks! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dirial Posted July 23, 2015 Report Share Posted July 23, 2015 Badge of Office seems like a great choice when Assassinate is on the table. I doubt I'd take it in any other situation though. Witch Bullet wouldn't be bad if I didn't need to sac it to use it. Plus she has a Witch Bullet trigger already. I'll play around with those and see. Thanks! If you didn't have to discard it, it would be bonkers. I'm a big fan of the Dampening Field lately, but sadly, both Franc and Dita need their (0). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rurouni Benshin Posted July 23, 2015 Author Report Share Posted July 23, 2015 If you didn't have to discard it, it would be bonkers. I'm a big fan of the Dampening Field lately, but sadly, both Franc and Dita need their (0). *looks up "Dampening Field"* *Jaw meets floor* Wow... Even for 1 ss, I'd consider it... But yeah, at the cost of their (0) action it'd be awfully situational. Even if I don't use Trick Shooting for a turn, I'm always tempted to redraw my hand if I needed the cards. Encourages me to burn through the better cards of my hand and hope for a better redraw when it comes to Perdita's turn. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dirial Posted July 23, 2015 Report Share Posted July 23, 2015 *looks up "Dampening Field"* *Jaw meets floor* It's quite good against certain models, isn't it? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ludvig Posted July 23, 2015 Report Share Posted July 23, 2015 Love dampening Sebastian a bit! Also any chatty models. Too bad it doesn't work against masters, that eould be totally balanced! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dirial Posted July 23, 2015 Report Share Posted July 23, 2015 Love dampening Sebastian a bit! Also any chatty models. Too bad it doesn't work against masters, that eould be totally balanced! Holding two turns, without a resist or any way of ending it, against Masters (say, Dreamer)? Yep, that would be totally fair. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ludvig Posted July 23, 2015 Report Share Posted July 23, 2015 Nico would aldo be fun. All we need is the ability to take vodoo dolls somehow. I siggest Zoraida as a triple faction Gremlins/Nvb/Guild for next ed On a more serious note you can use it against the lost love if someone playing Kirai tries to spread out. No more Ikiryo! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rurouni Benshin Posted July 23, 2015 Author Report Share Posted July 23, 2015 Nico would aldo be fun. All we need is the ability to take vodoo dolls somehow. I siggest Zoraida as a triple faction Gremlins/Nvb/Guild for next ed On a more serious note you can use it against the lost love if someone playing Kirai tries to spread out. No more Ikiryo! I haven't played as Kirai yet, but now I know to keep an eye out for this... Thanks! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ludvig Posted July 23, 2015 Report Share Posted July 23, 2015 Crap! We need to lock this forum for filthy ressers! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rurouni Benshin Posted July 30, 2015 Author Report Share Posted July 30, 2015 Hi again everyone, So last night I got a couple of games with Perdita against the Viks. Won a game and lost a game, and considering I've only played as them before only once, and never against them, I'd say I did alright. My first game was Reckoning at Close Deployment. Made the rookie mistake of bunching up Perdita, Franciso, and Abuela too close together. He sling slotted Vik of Blood at them, and Whirlwinded them pretty quickly. Costly mistake on my part, and I conceded the game by Turn 3 when he had me to a single model. Second game, I had a far better showing. We played Turf War at Corner Deployment. This next part will read more like a Battle Report, so please bare with me. We played nearly identical lists in both games, so here they are. My Crew: Perdita - Upgrades: Trick Shooting Francsico - Upgrades: Wade In Santiago - Upgrades: Hair Trigger Papa Loco Pistolero Pistolero Enslaved Nephilim Opponent's Crew: Vik of Ashes - Upgrades: Sisters in Spirit, Sisters in Fury, Synchronized Slaying Vik of Blood - Upgrades: Oath Keeper, Mark of Shez'uul Student of Conflict Bishop - Upgrades: Scramble Obedient Wretch Malifaux Rat Malifaux Rat My revealed schemes: Power Ritual, Deliver Message His revealed schemes: Power Ritual, Protect Territory Turn 1: Made sure to not bunch up my guys this time, and spread out further from each other, managing to keep most of them more than 2" away from each other. He still got to slingshot Vik of Blood (and managed to kill Perdita), but also made Papa Loco explode. Vik of Blood is down to a few Wds left, and he's in position with 2 models for Turf War scoring already, with a Fast Bishop rushing across to the opposite corner for a Power Ritual scheme marker. Turn 2: I win initiative and was able to take out Vik of Blood with Santiago Rapid Firing and Francisco charging on a chain activation. Vik of Blood drops scheme marker, having not used Oath Keeper. Managed to get 1 Pistolero to my opposite corner for a Power Ritual scheme marker for next turn. Lost out on Turn 2 scoring for Turf War, since both Francisco and Santiago were occupied with Vik of Blood for the turn. Turn 3: Francisco gets in base contact with the other model he had in the Turf War radius (a Rat Catcher), and got a single swing against him. Santiago gets pushed in range of the Turf War marker after Rapid Firing at Vik of Blood, thanks to the Enslaved Nephilim, and I now start scoring on Turf War. My Pistolero in the opposite corner drops the second scheme marker for Power Ritual, and heads back to the center of the board, while the other Pistolero ended up getting charged by Bishop, but manages to survive. Turn 4: I win initiative and delivered the message with Santiago, and companion'ed Francisco to take out the Rat Catcher that was in scoring position for Turf War, only to have another one replace him. Francisco finally dies now, but the unengaged Pistolero manages to get to the Turf War radius in time. Santiago gets pushed out of melee with the help of the Enslaved Nephilim, and Rapid Fires at Vik of Ashes. Bishop needs to take 2 attacks to finish off the Pistolero, and then gets in base contact with my first Power Ritual marker. Turn 5: I win initiative and between the Pistolero and Santiago, they take down Vik of Ashes. Bishop replaces the scheme marker I dropped with one of his own, and stays within 2" of it. He lays another scheme marker with the Obedient Wretch who's been in his deployment zone the whole game, and manages to finally set his own scheme marker in his own corner. Game ends on Turn 5 after he flips less than a 10 to continue. I win by a final score of 8-7, since he wasn't able to get a second model outside of 6" of his deployment zone and with 2" of another scheme marker. All in all, I think the game went as well as it could have. After that debilitating loss on the first game, I think I came back and responded very well. I now need to remember about the Whirlwind trigger when facing them, and understanding the key to taking down the Viks is going after Vik of Blood first. At any rate, your suggestions and comments are always still welcome. Despite losing Perdita early in both games, I still like her crew a lot. Not exactly sure how to respond to the Viks again with this crew, but I imagine with more games, I'll figure it out. Thanks again all! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EnternalVoid Posted July 30, 2015 Report Share Posted July 30, 2015 The key often to dealing with the Viks is to take one of them out as soon as possible. While having one still on the table gives them a nasty damage output with out having two they will not have the one two punch combo. Also alot of people like the Vik sling along with using Vik of Ash to power up Vik of blood. To this extent I am often very cautious initially in turn 1 with which models I activate first as I don't want an important model getting into range to quickly. As I like outactivating my opponent, or at least matching them pretty closely, I generally can make them start activating some part of combo around when I start activating my. Generally at that point I note what sort of hand I have and how many SS they have. Viks cannot take sustained damage, even with SS reduction if you are hitting them for 3-4 damage a strike it will start to stick and add up. The key is how you hit them. Your options are either alot of little hits after they have activated so they cannot retaliate draining their resources till you can get something through, or several bigger hits that they cannot entirely stop to hopefully finish them off. Unlike a normal master where if they take 4-5 damage they are often at half life or more, a Vik takes 5 and it is on death's door to almost any attack that gets through. The key is knowing what you are likely to accomplish in a given attack run on the Viks and what their assault range is. I also like having a minion run in and tie up one of the Viks to make it harder to do the sling *if you tie up Vik of Ash it is harder for her to reposition to sling Vik of blood, if you tie up Blood they have to use Vik of ash or the Student to pull her out so she can charge with full AP*. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Myyrä Posted July 30, 2015 Report Share Posted July 30, 2015 As I like outactivating my opponent, or at least matching them pretty closely, I generally can make them start activating some part of combo around when I start activating my.Unfortunately, it is practically impossible to out-activate Viks when they bring Obedient Wretch. What you can do though, is shoot them down with Perdita before they activate. Vengeance Bullet helps with that immensely, as does Papa in the box trick. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rurouni Benshin Posted July 30, 2015 Author Report Share Posted July 30, 2015 Unfortunately, it is practically impossible to out-activate Viks when they bring Obedient Wretch. What you can do though, is shoot them down with Perdita before they activate. Vengeance Bullet helps with that immensely, as does Papa in the box trick. That was exactly what my problem was. Only model I could've brought that would've had a chance of taking out the Obedient Wretch would've been Nino. Hard to argue against that now, since I did in fact win the second game. Next time I'll try starting Francisco closer to her to give her the El Mayor bonus. I'd probably still be very cautious with them, but at least at Df 9, she's much more resilient. Thanks for the advice everyone! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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