Effects of Upgrades taken by Buried models

[OneLittleThunder]

We've discussed this a bit on a Wyrd Place with no real consensus, so I thought I'd ask the question here to see if we can get an official ruling.

 

If a model has an Upgrade that gives other friendly models an ability with no LoS or range restrictions, can the other models still use that ability while the Upgraded model is buried?

 

As an example: Ototo has the Smoke & Shadows upgrade which gives two new Tactical Actions to "All friendly Last Blossom Minion models". He gets buried by an enemy Death Marshal. While Ototo is buried, can Last Blossom Minions use the powers granted by that Upgrade?

 

On the one hand, Ototo is not "in play," which suggests that his Upgrades wouldn't have any effect. On the other hand...well Patrick McGraw said it best:

 

Buried actually has a list of very specific effects, rather than just "this model isn't in play and doesn't do anything."

 

Notably, buried models "do not count as 'in play' for the purposes of other rules that reference whether or not a model is in play." (M2E, p. 47, second paragraph under "Buried".)

 

Buried models do still retain all of their abilities, actions, conditions, and status effects - they're just restricted in exactly what they can do and be affected by, as a result of the specific effects of Buried.

 

And looking at the upgrades that grant abilities, actions, or triggers to other models without range or LOS restrictions, some specify "while this model is in play" (Flames of the Pit, Disrupt Magic), and some do not (Obsidian Talons, Smoke & Shadows).

 

(Similarly, Lynch's "Ace in the Hole" contains no range, LOS, or "while this model is in play" restrictions.)

 

So I can definitely see the reading that Smoke & Shadows continues to have its effects even if the model is buried.

 

So...thoughts?

[papa smurf]

Why does Little Brother need to be in play ? He is still part of the Encounter just not in play. If all friendly minion last blossom models in play gain smoke bombs. Then that's what happening. No los is needed. The torakage would lose the actions If it was buried since its no longer in play.

Let's look at this from a different angle. It arcanist master x has seize the day ( to the initiative flip) and gets buried. The upgrade still works.

Abilities don't get turned off while buried. No do effects. It'd just hard to draw los to something Not there.

[Kadeton]

Some upgrades only work while the model that carries them is buried. There's nothing that stops upgrades working while buried unless the model is required to be in play.

[daniello_s]

It would be nice to get official statement from Wyrd on that matter.

I was always under impression that models which are not in play (so i.e. buried or killed) do not take part in the Encounter (unless their special rules/abilities say otherwise) and do not grant any bonuses to their crew.

[papa smurf]

Buried models most certainly take part in the Encounter.

Buried models are removed from play not the game.

Killed/sacrificed are removed from the game.

Not in play =/= not in game

[moxypoo]

Papa Smurf is correct.  Being Buried simply means that you aren't "currently in play," which does not equal "outside the game."  Thus, I support the stance that says upgrades worded like the one in the original post work even when the upgraded model is buried.

 

Note that the Void Wretch's Void Maw attack can only target Buried models and specifically mentions that it does not require LOS or range, supporting the idea that Buried and non-Buried models can interact provided they don't need to draw range or LOS.

[Fetid Strumpet]

Depends though. Am I incorrect that there is a rule or FAQ that prevents buried models from using abilities and triggers? If so if the upgrade gives an ability it wouldn't be useable from a buried model.

[OneLittleThunder]

Depends though. Am I incorrect that there is a rule or FAQ that prevents buried models from using abilities and triggers? If so if the upgrade gives an ability it wouldn't be useable from a buried model.

 

Thing is, it's not the buried model that's using the ability. Other (unburied) models are using the ability; the buried model just has the Upgrade that unlocks it.

[Nicodemic]

models that are buried still count for distract/cursed object, i would say as long as the upgrade doesn't need LoS or range it should still count.

[Allandrel]

Buried models may not declare Triggers, per the FAQ.

Models that are buried still use their abilities, though some will not apply because of the specific effects of buried.

Some examples:

A model's Armor applies to any damage that it might take while buried (such as from Burning or a Void Wretch's Void Maw).

Explosive Demise will have no effect if the model is killed while buried, as its effect has a range and requires LOS.

Toshiro the Daimyo's "Bloated Stench" will affect a Void Wretch that damages him with Void Maw, as no range or LOS is required.

In addition, some abilities and actions have an effect with a duration of "until the start of this model's next Activation, or until this model is removed from play", while others are "until the start of this model's next Activation, or until this model is killed or sacrificed." The first effect would end when the model is buried, but the second would continue (potentially until the end of the game if the model stays buried, as it cannot activate).