Are the Vicky's Weak?

[Math Mathonwy]

I'm not seeing why Seamus is just difficult while most of the other resser masters are close to impossible. One of Seamus big things that he pays alot for on his card is durability. If he isn't the hardest to kill there is something wrong.

"Most of the others" meaning Kirai and Nicodem? So two out of six? I do think that they are both more difficult if there are models around to shunt attacks into. And Seamus "only" has his crazy amount of Wounds and the ItW since his healing won't help him if the opponent is going to kill him in one Activation and Leve ignores his HtK and his Hat (unless I'm misremembering the wording on the Hat). His Terrifying is also of limited use in this scenario.

Also, I didn't write "just difficult", I wrote "extremely difficult".

Now, in a real game and not in a one-turn Assassination scenario his healing certainly makes him one of the most difficult ones, actually.

[zFiend]

Oh right. It ignores HtK and the hat.. Well that makes it a bit more possible then.

Kirai is really tough to kill if she has the right upgrades and seishin around.

[Myyrä]

Incorrect: his normal version does four points and with a different trigger can't be prevented using Soul Stones. This one can be prevented using Soul Stones. A Master with 12 Wounds would be taking six preventing, on average, two and thus netting the exact same four damage (though naturally using up an SS from the opponent). A full health Lady Justice naturally would be taking seven so there it would be a good idea dealing one extra point of damage on average.

 

Go on, try it. Run us through the likely outcomes against various Masters. The "almost" part of the "almost any" gets mighty big mighty fast, you'll see

There is a world of difference between being able to do something and being able to do something reliably all the time. I only made claims about the first one. I'm aware that it isn't the likely outcome against most masters unless you have a better hand than your opponent.

[Kadeton]

@Kadeton How often do you actually kill Masters from full health? I can totally see how Leveticus can finish off Masters that have taken a few wounds be still have enough left to feel safe under normal circumstances. But there are a lot Master that could make you whiff one or two attacks in one way or another.

 

Not particularly often - it's rarely important. Leveticus' activation usually involves killing whatever will produce the greatest net gain in board advantage - sometimes that's a Master, but more often it's a key beater or scheme runner, or a few weak enemy minions.

 

A Levy crew generally has lots of ways to knock a Master around a bit before the turn you decide to kill them, so I doubt full-to-dead has actually come up in many games for me - but it's certainly come up often enough to earn Leveticus a reputation for it among the people I play against. 

 

I wasn't really expecting my flippant comment to turn into a full-scale inquisition, but it's actually kind of an interesting exercise. There are plenty of assumptions in Math's analysis that I don't agree with (lots of them come down to situational factors, which are obstacles you need to manage or remove before you make your assassination attempt), but the fact that even in his estimation, about two-thirds of the Masters he's looked at (including the two Factions with the most difficult Masters to kill) rate a full-to-dead kill as "difficult" or easier speaks to just how dangerous Levy really is.

[Myyrä]

I wasn't really expecting my flippant comment to turn into a full-scale inquisition, but it's actually kind of an interesting exercise. There are plenty of assumptions in Math's analysis that I don't agree with (lots of them come down to situational factors, which are obstacles you need to manage or remove before you make your assassination attempt), but the fact that even in his estimation, about half the Masters he's looked at (in the two Factions with the most difficult Masters to kill) rate a full-to-dead kill as "difficult" or easier speaks to just how dangerous Levy really is.

Math also chose his factions well. The numbers don't look so great when you take a look at for example Arcanists.

[daniello_s]

Who would care about killing Master in one activation? Hurt him, hurt him a lot in one turn. Then next turn see him fleeing and sweating from fear!

[Math Mathonwy]

There is a world of difference between being able to do something and being able to do something reliably all the time. I only made claims about the first one. I'm aware that it isn't the likely outcome against most masters unless you have a better hand than your opponent.

I simply disagreed with you and posited that I am not convinced that the Trigger you presented makes an appreciable difference due to SS prevention option.

 

Math also chose his factions well. The numbers don't look so great when you take a look at for example Arcanists.

In my defense, I took the two Factions I'm most familiar with ("my" factions) and then Outcasts due to us being on their forum currently.

Now that I think about it, yeah, Arcanists, Neverborn, TT, and Guild have several Masters that would be rather simpler for Levi. So the percentages would likely be different if all were taken into account. I still think that he mostly kills easily Hoffman, Lynch, Victoria, and Lilith (am I missing anyone?). So that's a bit far from "almost anyone".

[Bengt]

Math also chose his factions well. The numbers don't look so great when you take a look at for example Arcanists.

I don't think it's that bad. Rasputina have Counterspel, Ironsides and Ramos can have it from upgrades, seems to be commonly taken by Ironsides, dunno about Ramos. Colette has death defying. The other three don't have any applicable defences.

[zFiend]

Marcus can swap the damage to another beast. So that might come in play.

[Bengt]

Marcus can swap the damage to another beast. So that might come in play.

It's Df, Unmaking is Wp.

[zFiend]

It's Df, Unmaking is Wp.

Right you are.

[mythicfoxhound]

On the kirai thing if everyone knows your passing off wounds then how many aboms are now surrounding her with their simple duels and no 0 actions and no suits to Ca. Either way levy just neutered everything she wanted to do. Now if you let him hit you and you get ikiryo out then that is fine ish...

Now a stubborn wp9 Perdita. Now there is something levy would have trouble chewing through. Add in cover and really be up set.

[Bengt]

On the kirai thing if everyone knows your passing off wounds then how many aboms are now surrounding her with their simple duels and no 0 actions and no suits to Ca. Either way levy just neutered everything she wanted to do. Now if you let him hit you and you get ikiryo out then that is fine ish...

That is assuming he went for a  instead of a  (no SS prevention) or a  (half damage). He would have to arrange the suit before either player declare their triggers. Also if Kirai is passing hits to Seishin she can stop them from dying with Spirit Beacon.

[mythicfoxhound]

Must have mis-read

Desolate Warping: After reducing an enemy model to 0 Wounds, summon an Abomination into base contact with it before removing it.

Seshin hits 0 abom is summoned then it is healed.

Timing box I think.

Defenders trigger passes off the attack. So now the seshin is the target. So then attackers trigger (abom) then attackers abilities. Then defenders (who is the seshin?) Then kirai saving it.

So she is either taking the 2/3/4 and preventing with stones. Or she is giving up aboms.

I don't think I mis read timing. But if I did please correct me.

[Bengt]

Spirit Beacon says "when", Desolate Warping says "after". So as far as I know general timing wouldn't apply since they are not trying to go off at the same time.

[Myyrä]

Spirit Beacon says "when", Desolate Warping says "after". So as far as I know general timing wouldn't apply since they are not trying to go off at the same time.

Spirit Beacon doesn't change the fact that the Seishin was reduced to 0 wounds. Dying isn't a requirement for desolate warping.

[Abbazabba]

Any henchman/master can just use a SS to counter his + to damage and give leve - to the damage (unless he wins the duel by a bunch). If he focuses first, then damage prevent to minimize. Any healing can minimize the damage.