kirai and ikiryo

[Dafty]

If summoning is the result of an Action, the summoned model must be placed within LoS to the acting model.

Malevolence:..........summon Ikiryo into base contact with the Attacking model.

I Always thought regardless of los ikiryo gets summoned next to what ever hit her. But last night my opponent (playing kirai) said kirai needs los to the attacker since it is a summon.

With more time to dig. Malevolence is not an Action. But ikiryo is summoned as a result of an action.

So what's the community/ right way to play this.

[valhallan42nd]

In that case, Kirai doesn't need LoS to the point where Ikiryo appears. If that was the case, the Ikiryo would join the enemy's crew, too, which would be silly. The whole paragraph of summoning via actions doesn't apply to Malevolence, as it's an ability.

"If summoning is the result of an Action, the summoned model must be placed within LoS to the acting model. In addition, the summoned model belongs to the acting model's Crew, and is under the control of the acting model's player (regardless of which player controlled the acting model during the Action)."

 

Put another way: A model summoning via an action needs LOS and range to the summoned model to complete the action. A model summoned via an action belongs to the crew of the  model using the action. So, if a model was Obeyed to summon another model, the summoned model would belong to the summoning model’s crew.

Since Malevolence is not an action, let’s break that down.

1. No LOS is required to place a summoned Ikiryo, as Ikiryo is summoned via an ability

2. LOS and range is required to the target of the attack that activates Malevolence, as it’s aura based, and auras require LOS

3. Ikiryo does not belong to the active (IE, attacking) model’s crew, as it is not the attack that summons Ikiryo, but rather the Malevolence’s effect on the use of that attack ability. The attack action activates the ability, and the ability summons Ikiryo.

[Insidiously Mad]

Everyone I've seen play it plays it as your opponent does. You need LOS to the attacking model for them to trigger the summon. 

[Dirial]

I don't have the book ready, but Summoning needs LoS. It's a general rule.

[thebarbalag]

Also, isn't Malevolence an aura or a pulse? Both of those need LoS to function as well.

[Dafty]

I posted the summoning bit. First line. Only the model being hit needs to be in 6 of kirai.

[Dirial]

I posted the summoning bit. First line. Only the model being hit needs to be in 6 of kirai.

 

That's why I said that I don't have the book at hand. Could you explain why you emphazise the "summoning by an action" part? Is it spelled out like that in the book? Because I only remember that you need LoS regardless, and then the model is Slow and cannot Interact. Those are the general summoning rules, or not?

[jonahmaul]

If you are summoning then Ikyro needs to pop out within LoS.  But being that she is Ht3 it's usually pretty easy to plonk her behind things and her still be in LoS.

[Insidiously Mad]

Malevolence: After a friendly Living or Undead model within aura 6" suffers damage from an enemy attack action, this model may discard a soulstone or card to summon Ikiryo into base contact with the attacking model.

Since there is nothing specifically ignoring LOS, I would say you still need line of site since in the main rulebook it states that summoning needs LOS

[Dafty]

Here the WHOLE section. Mind you only the part I posted is relevant.

Summon

Summoning creates a new model. The model is placed within range of the effect (most often an Action's range). If it is not possible to place the model because of other models or terrain, the effect that caused the summon fails.

A Crew may never exceed a model's Rare limit through summoning. If, for example, an Action would summon a Rare 1 model into a Crew when the Crew already has a copy of that model on the table, the effect that summons the model fails.

If summoning is the result of an Action, the summoned model must be placed within LoS to the acting model. In addition, the summoned model belongs to the acting model's Crew, and is under the control of the acting model's player (regardless of which player controlled the acting model during the Action).

Models that are summoned gain the Slow Condition, and may not take Interact Actions during the Turn they are summoned.

Summoned models count toward Victory Rules as normal.

[Dafty]

I would say you still need line of site since in the main rulebook it states that summoning needs LOS

It says ACTIONS need los.

[Adran]

Malevolance isn't an action. Its an ability.  So you aren't summonign as the result of an action, so it doesn't need line of sight

[Dirial]

In that case, Kirai doesn't need LoS to the point where Ikiryo appears. If that was the case, the Ikiryo would join the enemy's crew, too, which would be silly. The whole paragraph of summoning via actions doesn't apply to Malevolence, as it's an ability.

[jonahmaul]

Hmmm, that's interesting.  I've always played it by regular summoning rules (I say *always* but I've only played Kirai twice!) but the quoted section from Dafty does specifically call out summoning as an action.  I wonder if this is another case of lack of consistency on cards or whether Kirai is supposed to be able to put Ikyro in your face without needing LoS.

[Dafty]

Well in the beta Justin chimed in. Something like. All is fair if they are shooting though walls just as fair for vengeful spirts to scare you.

[Myyrä]

Kirai doesn't need LoS to Ikiryo when summoning her because the summoning isn't part of an action.

Kirai isn't even the only master who can summon outside her LoS. It happens.

[jonahmaul]

Kirai isn't even the only master who can summon outside her LoS. It happens.

Could you give some of the others?  Not doubting you but the only summoners I play are Ressers and I can't think of any off the top of my head that can do this.

[Adran]

Sonnia doesn't summon off an action, so it is possible for the stalker to be out of sight.

[Dirial]

Sonnia doesn't summon off an action, so it is possible for the stalker to be out of sight.

 

Only by a small margin, though, as the dying model has to be in her .

[Dafty]

Ashes and dust.

[Myyrä]

Could you give some of the others?  Not doubting you but the only summoners I play are Ressers and I can't think of any off the top of my head that can do this.

One Resser master (other than Kirai) can do it too. I'll let you figure out yourself which one it is.

[jonahmaul]

Nico can but only through the Vulture so I'm guessing that doesn't count!  Seamus and McMourning definitely can't and I'm pretty sure that Yan Lo can't either as he needs a corpse marker.  So I'm going to say Molly can somehow but I've not played her!

 

How can A&D do it?!  It can only summon off a trigger from an Attack Action (which needs LoS) can't it?

[Dafty]

When he splits. Dust storm is summoned well mostly anywhere you want him.

[jonahmaul]

Ah, I see.  I thought you meant A&D could actually do the summoning itself!

[Insidiously Mad]

Does that mean Dreamer can summon Chompy out of LOS as well? Cause that is also an ability not an action. This conversation just became more important to me

[Insidiously Mad]

awww sadly not, Dreamer's says within 6" and LOS.... oh well

The fact that his says it specifically makes me think that Ikiryo is intended to not need LOS and the rules seem to back that up.