Trigger Questions w/ ending an Activation

[DocSchlock]

Killjoy attacks Rasputina. Raspy declares Sub Zero, Killjoy declares Onslaught.

Does Killjoy get the additional attack, or does ending his activation stop his trigger from resolving?

Side question:
Killing a model after it has declared a non-after damaging trigger - does that remove the declared trigger from play? The rulebook doesn't say the model sticks around the resolve it, but it also doesn't say anything about the trigger failing.

Example:

Model A attacks Model B. Model A declares Trigger A, which is "after succeeding, target model is pushed 4."

Model A dies to Black Blood. Does Model B still push? Why?

[The Godlyness]

Only and only after damaging says don't remove the model. After successful failing resolving do not. A model not in play can't push or heal or dance. Its no longer part of the game.

Both triggers happen. My reasoning you don't need an activation to make an attack. But funny things would happen if killjoy was near any of the boondoggle. He would suffer those effects first. Then make his strike.

Subzero does not say end the current attack action.

Edit I don't see why a surge trigger would fail to work. But if the model is not in play pushes, places, pulses, etc would have no effect.

[Seregon]

I would say that Killjoy does not get to make another strike in the same way as a Viktoria would not be able to trigger Whirlwind. End of activation in my mind prevents you from making additional actions of any kind during that activation.

[The Godlyness]

Your activation might end. But nothing is ending or resolving the current action till all triggers and abilities are resolved.

[Seregon]

The trigger may go off, but since your activation has ended you are not allowed to make any more actions and thus they aren't performed.

 

Otherwise if someone had a defensive trigger to paralyze you, you'd hit them, get paralyzed and then still be allowed to keep attacking (assuming your attack doesn't have a or ).

Your activation is over, so no more actions of any sort allowed. It's the opponent's turn.

 

At least that's my reasoning.

[Dirial]

Hm, that's not entirely correct, Seregon. If the activation is over, a model cannot spend AP anymore, but technically, it's not forbidden to attack (s. the Clockwork Trap for an example).

 

I always assumed that triggers granting additional actions would fail when the activation ends (and I believe it may be intended that way) but it's not clear cut. I don't remember a rule that enforces my assumption. Thus, I agree with Godlyness until clarification.

[Bengt]

P 52 "If a model gains the Paralyzed Condition during its Activation it loses all of its AP, may not take any more Actions, and ends its current Action with no effect. Its Activation effectively moves to the "End Activation" step, with no further Actions taken by the model."

 

That sure sounds like you would lose Onslaught/Overpower type of Attacks, especially the "..end its current Action with no effect." bit. If Sub Zero is intended to work the same way is anyone's guess.

[jonahmaul]

Defenders declare triggers first so surely that would end Killjoy's activation at that point as it ends 'immediately'.  If attackers triggered first I would say he does get another attack before his activation ends but not in this case.

[The Godlyness]

Yes his Activation would be ended. But the current Action has not been resolved yet.

Page 36

End Activation

Any game effects that happen at the end of the model's Activation are resolved now. As with start of Activation effects, the controlling player determines the order in which the effects resolve.

After effects are resolved any unspent AP are lost, and the model's Activation is over.

Sub Zero: After this model suffers damage from a Ml Attack, immediately end the Attacker’s Activation.

Neither the rule book or subzero says end the current Action. What would happen would any end of activation effects would go off (hence why I mentioned boondoggle) then you would complete the current Action. But onslaught will go though.

[jonahmaul]

But the current action is ended.  The Onslaught trigger says to take this action 'again' therefore it's a separate action generated by the same AP.

[The Godlyness]

Do I need to quote the actions causing actions box? Cause I will.

The good bit of it "..The original Action is not considered resolved until the new Actions are also resolved."

Page 38

Just so we are completely clear.

Sub zero does NOT cause or give The Paralyzed Condition. If it did this would not be a topic at all.

[jonahmaul]

And would you like a definition of immediately?  Because I will:

 

'at once; instantly'

 

And Malifaux is a deliberately a game that uses common language.  Let's take another example from the FAQ that uses immediately:

 

'What happens if Mei Feng targets Pandora with Jackhammer Kick? What happens first, Pandora’s Fading Memory, or the push from Jackhammer Kick?
A: Fading Memory occurs immediately after success, and the push portion of Jackhammer Kick occurs when applying the results of success or failure. Fading Memory would happen first, pushing Pandora. Then Mei Feng would be pushed into base contact due to Jackhammer Kick.' (my emphasis)

 

So Raspy's Sub Zero would happen 'immediately' after (Killjoy's) success and therefore Killjoy's activation would end immediately (as in at once, instantly).  Was it meant to be anything else it would state 'after resolving triggers' or something similar as many other abilities do (i.e. after succeeding, after damaging, after taking damage etc.)

[The Godlyness]

So if it was a different trigger like so push or a draw a card you just wouldn't do it? I think not. Resolve the action then activate something else.

[jonahmaul]

Defenders Triggers go first and since Rasputina's defence trigger ends your action immediately (as once, instantly) then the Attacker would not get to declare their trigger so no I would push or draw a card because my activation has just been ended giving me no opportunity to do so.

[The Godlyness]

Declaring triggers happens step 4 of the opposed duel process.

If you can find in the wording of subzero or end activation says "end the current Action" you have an argument. Till then you don't. The current Action us not resolved till the triggers are.

[Seregon]

The "Actions Causing Actions" does seem to give The Godlyness the right of it. I'd still like to see it in the FAQ, but I guess my Viks got a little bit happier when facing Raspy from now on.

[Icemyn]

I'm always amused when people quote a dictionary in a rules forum, it always ends badly. 

 

So the trigger says to end the models activation does it say to end the current action? I don't see where it does. 

 

Could you post the dictionary definition of Action and Activation so that we can see how they are apparently the same thing?

[Dirial]

I'm always amused when people quote a dictionary in a rules forum, it always ends badly. 

 

So the trigger says to end the models activation does it say to end the current action? I don't see where it does. 

 

Could you post the dictionary definition of Action and Activation so that we can see how they are apparently the same thing?

No reason to get testy. Malifaux uses common language and common sense. Not unreasonable to try to build an argument that way, even if you and I don't agree with him.

[Myyrä]

The Godlyness seems to be in the right track for once. There is nothing about the rules about end of activation ending an action.

Can someone tell me if model getting killed ends its action?

[The Godlyness]

For once even

Why would it matter.

It's attack can't draw los If it's no longer on the table.

[Dirial]

Can someone tell me if model getting killed ends its action?

 

I'd assume so, since it leaves play, and thus cannot influence the game in any way. Just an assumption (and until a few hours ago, I also assumed that Sub Zero cancels Onslaught).

[The Godlyness]

Did you also think it ended a Charge Action?

[Myyrä]

Did you also think it ended a Charge Action?

I actually wouldn't be least bit surprised if FAQ answer would say that ending activation also ends all actions. No such rule exists at the moment however.

[Dirial]

Did you also think it ended a Charge Action?

 

Wow. Now you're blowing my mind.

 

I actually wouldn't be least bit surprised if FAQ answer would say that ending activation also ends all actions. No such rule exists at the moment however.

 

Yeah, probably.

[The Godlyness]

Just for you gremlins players out there. Pigs (and things like them ) with eat your fill can charge use eat your fill trigger stampede and continue doing this till they miss or fail to hit stamped.

Funsys for every one.

[Seregon]

...aaaaand with that I expect to see this errata'd in the next FAQ.