D_acolyte Posted January 24, 2015 Report Share Posted January 24, 2015 I just played a game with Lilith for the first time and I was wondering are there any good builds/strategies that do not make use of the grow mechanic? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
asrian Posted January 24, 2015 Report Share Posted January 24, 2015 I personally never have (and probably never will) use the grow mechanic in my games with her. She is far too versatile with Beckon Malifaux (create terrain), Wicked Mistress (Lure), and Living Blade (3" engagement, attack and damage flip, and a pounce) to me. Or if I want to go for card superiority at the start, I take a Primordial Magic totem and Wings of Darkness (+1 card when stoning for cards & Flight) on her which gives her the ability to draw 2 extra cards for her's and Primordial's Rush of Magic ability, and 3 cards for stoning. That's 11 cards at the start for 1SS a turn (8 if you don't stone) that allows you to get rid of a nice chunk of low cards before the turn even begins. Basically, she can do what I want, when I want, where I want with a combination of the above, be it killing, scheme marker manipulation, positioning manipulation (with Wicked Mistress and Tangle Shadows), has 2 0AP actions (so if Cherub is taken can do any combination of create Terrain, drop a scheme marker if within his aura, or gain a damage boost if charging). Personally, I find the grow list to be a trap for her. You end up spending more time trying to plan out and ensure your tots/young are in positions to benefit from growth, and end up potentially having your schemes/strats suffer. I know some have done well with it, but it really requires you to also invest in either/or both Nekima and Black Blood Shaman as well. With the non-growth upgrades you're a toolbox who has a possible answer for any situation and it leaves you more freedom in crew selection and use to accomplish your goals. That's my personal opinion on it, anyway. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oreaper Posted January 24, 2015 Report Share Posted January 24, 2015 +1 to Asrain I have been playing the dickens out of my newly painted lilith crew and have found that every time i try for a grow list, it falls short of achieving anything and my models end up trying unsucessfully to fill 2 roles. The tots need to tot about and scheme not turn to young. The black blood shammy is a good tool for splash damage, but many crews ignore this and its a steep 7 stone. Where i haven't tried the above upgrade set (yet,,,,man that is nasty and will prob appear in my next match ) I can agree that lilith is a toolbox that can be where you want with the cards you need. Also, i have heard that swampfiend lilith is a defensive nightmarelittering the board via walgiests securing the middle while scheme runners do thier thing. Scattering mimics blessing about is very helpful in card control too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patzer Posted January 27, 2015 Report Share Posted January 27, 2015 Going off topic to start, but I will go back on point. I find that the Grow list is a very fluffy way of playing Lilith, but it can be hard to balance it out with the actually playing the game. Since if a player becomes obsessed with that things should grow, it can become an additional scheme for your crew. I think that is fine and a good way to balance things out, since it shouldn't be easy to turn 4ss into 11ss. However, I think that if a player can either implement the Grow mechanic into a passive bonus, which one doesn't let in the way of actually going for VPs, it can certainly be viable. With that said, it is not for everyone (me included), but it is certainly a viable playstyle that doesn't need to include Nekima. On topic! Lilith can work with more or less anything. She is very adaptable and can certainly find a use for most models in Neverborn. With that said, she certainly have some favourites... Waldegeist are probably Lilith's staple minion. They are resilient, the can create terrain, can cover a lot of terrain with a possible 4" ml range, hits fairly ok and got two outstanding triggers. One gives out slow, and the other the Rooted condition which synergies very well with all Push effects in Lilith's crew. The rest of the swampfiend, with the merc Mctavish included, are all a great way of building on what the Waldegeist brings. McTavish is very versatile and brings a trusty rifle to Neverborn, give him a look! When he simply ticks, it can feel like he is the master of any crew. As Asrian already stated, Primordial Magic is great. The stacking Rush of Magic makes it worth taking alone. Yet that its a moving scheme marker! Mr Tannen provides some interesting tricks to Lilith. I am toying with the thought of having him close by Lilith, who then sucks enemies close to her with either Transfixing Gaze or Tangle Shadows. Tannen's Cooler aura, and trigger to Block the usage of Soulstones, should bring most models to their doom. Tannen also got Leave it to Luck action, which turn +2 of value when cheated in, while suffer -2. Its a bit of a risk, but if you have on hand in order to cast Tangle or Gaze, it can really be worth it! Onto the master herself. She is a fragile melee hitter. Lilith doesn't like to be in the thick of it, rather she likes to pick out an opponent and going after that model secluded. That is, she likes to ambush opponents of guard, while keeping herself out of retaliations way. Rathnard described her as a Guerilla fighter in one of his blog posts, and the description is spot on! Lilith combines a ton of board control, great defences against non Willpower attacks, great card drawing mechanics, and some striking hitting power. She certainly got weaknesses, but all of her strengths can still shift the game into her favour. For example Lilith doesn't have a lot of straight up defences against shooting, but she can create terrain to either block herself of or in front of the shooters in order to nullify them. If a nasty WP attacker is sneaking up on her, she can cast Wicked Vines on it to immobilize it for a turn. Enough time to reposition or having a friend tie it up. The different ways of using the tricks are seemingly innumerable, which makes Lilith a real tool-box master. While in order to use all of her actions and abilities at their fullest potential, you will need to read each situation correctly and plan accordingly, and that certainly takes some practices to get the nuances of. She is heaps of fun and really starting to become my favourite master. Give her a go! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ikvar Posted January 27, 2015 Report Share Posted January 27, 2015 Just to underline what people are already saying, very few people ever play her with a grow list. However it is a question I am often asked when new players starts playing around with Neverborn/Lilith, as it seems to be her main tactic when you quickly read over her rules and fluff. And the fact that some of her best friends are not even nephilim makes it even more weird to many people. I love playing with Lilith, in fact she has become my main go-to master in Malifaux, however I think her grow mechanic is a major missed opportunity and a completely broken mechanic. I am just sad that I mostly played with Gremlins when we did the beta :/ So to answer your question yet again, almost all good builds/strategies completely exclude her grow mechanic, and if you really want to be competitive you should look more for the swampfiend models then the nephilim models. A swampfiend crew with Bad juju, some waldergeists and a silurid is a good beginning Though I must say that I am having a bit of fun playing around with Nekima together with Lilith, but that is mostly because both models can be quite independent of everyone else in the crew. And a last bit of advice for Lilith herself- her most defensive ability has nothing to do with her stats or anything, it is the illusionary forest she can make herself. If enemies ever have a direct and easy acces to her, you are doing something wrong Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joel Posted January 27, 2015 Report Share Posted January 27, 2015 as a counterpoint, I'd add that the a grow list is perfectly viable and getting 2 mature nephilim on the table ruins opponent's days. Lilith can run with anyone in any strategy/scheme pool mix however and I'd hard pressed to think of any models that she could take that wouldn't work well with her. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D_acolyte Posted January 27, 2015 Author Report Share Posted January 27, 2015 Thank you everyone. It is not that I do not think grow lists are not viable but rather I remember playing vs one a lot in first ed and though it is not the same some of those feeling still linger, even know that it is a lot better balance wise then it was back then. My main Neverborn masters in second ed are Lynch and Dreamer but I have the opportunity to acquire a Lilith crew and wanted to see if that was the major build still. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nical Posted January 27, 2015 Report Share Posted January 27, 2015 Just to underline what people are already saying, very few people ever play her with a grow list. However it is a question I am often asked when new players starts playing around with Neverborn/Lilith, as it seems to be her main tactic when you quickly read over her rules and fluff. And the fact that some of her best friends are not even nephilim makes it even more weird to many people. Newbies usually think Lilith as Melee Monster and/or Nephilim-specific Master. Because they usually see 'simple' and 'positive(something good to something better)' synergies first and don't think about how these works in game. 'Lilith can kill opponent's model for grow by Tangle Shadows and my crew will be stronger than opponents.' This is their thought about Grow tactic. I agree it can work and very useful in less SS games, but I think this tactic is about Killing by Tangle Shadows, not Grow. Grow is just 'bonus'. And I think Board Control is better than Grow tactic, too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Uktena Posted January 28, 2015 Report Share Posted January 28, 2015 The only time I've ever grown well was a game with Reckoning and Make Them Suffer in play. I knew my opponent would load up on Enforcers and Henchthings so Grow was within reach easily. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
default_108 Posted January 28, 2015 Report Share Posted January 28, 2015 I've found use for the grow mechanic in Henchman led games where I used Nekima. I pulled a pretty brutal upset on my brother when I suddenly turned a young nephlim into a Mature, pretty big gain in a 30 SS game. But with Lilith I seldom take any grow tactics, I prefer to just start with my crew where I want it and just do the things Lilith does best, Manipulate the board. I find Beckon Malifaux and WIcked Mistress with one or two Waldegeists just about does it unless I need scheme runners then I bring Terror Tots. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joel Posted January 28, 2015 Report Share Posted January 28, 2015 My grow list isn't grow focused, it just can do it. Lilith (2-3 upgrades of your choice) Cherub 3 terror tots 2 waldgeist 1 young nephilim 1 mature nephilim (rapid growth) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StaticVortex Posted January 28, 2015 Report Share Posted January 28, 2015 My grow list isn't grow focused, it just can do it. This is now how I view grow...as an available option, should the situation present itself. I have tried multiple dedicated grow lists, but found I suffered from the perception that the purpose was to make grow happen. That caused me to become focused on how to position for and execute this single mechanic. I had been wearing blinders. Suddenly it is turn 4 and my former tots are now young or mature, granting me a considerable SS advantage over my opponent. Now what? I have zero VP, and limited time to set out and accomplish something with my fastest models having been removed from the table. These days, I tend to add grow as an option when I am likely to need late game strength...after my tots have schemed or delivered messages, etc. BBS has some tricks to play with as a utility threat. In short, play a grow list like you would any other but with a possibility to grow in the back of your mind. When the opportunity arises, take it, if not....eh...you've got other goals to accomplish. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oreaper Posted January 28, 2015 Report Share Posted January 28, 2015 I guess the real question is whether the grow mechanic as a option is viablely worth the cost to bring. 1 stone is not bad for a 4 cache master if you have a little room for it. I the BB shamman making appearances elsewise or is it brought mostly for its grow utility. 7 stones is a lot for grow if your facing Ramos or V Schill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nical Posted January 28, 2015 Report Share Posted January 28, 2015 I guess the real question is whether the grow mechanic as a option is viablely worth the cost to bring. 1 stone is not bad for a 4 cache master if you have a little room for it. I the BB shamman making appearances elsewise or is it brought mostly for its grow utility. 7 stones is a lot for grow if your facing Ramos or V Schill Black Blood Shaman is not used in Crew for Just Grow. He can use Black Blood Pustule and/or give Black Blood to Non-Black Blood Models, these are his real advantages. So even Non-nephilim Crews sometimes take him. In other word, Grow Tactic is Option in Black Blood Shaman's case, too. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StaticVortex Posted January 28, 2015 Report Share Posted January 28, 2015 I guess the real question is whether the grow mechanic as a option is viablely worth the cost to bring. 1 stone is not bad for a 4 cache master if you have a little room for it. I the BB shamman making appearances elsewise or is it brought mostly for its grow utility. 7 stones is a lot for grow if your facing Ramos or V Schill I'd not take BB Shaman just for the grow utility...he does so much more! In my crews, BBS tends to play multiple roles...I like to give black blood to models that don't have it, strategic scheme specific positioning (think explosives) and ...the pustule is very nice and I'm looking forward to playing that out with the Corrupted Hounds, and as for grow, I find Bloody Feast to be a more reliable option to transform that tot with a single remaining wound into a healthy flying young. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.