Black Blood and Hazardous Terrain

[DocSchlock]

Nekima charges a model in Hazardous terrain. When does the damage from the terrain occur?

1) Nekima moves and stops as soon as she touches / enters the Hazardous Terrain, taking the damage flip and Black Blooding where she stopped. She then continues her movement.

2) Nekima completes her move, then takes the damage and Black Bloods.

We ruled it the first way based on the damage being taken on "entering," but we're interested if that's how everyone else does it.

[The Godlyness]

Hazardous - Terrain that is considered hazardous deals damage to models that Activate while within it, or enter it (if they are pushed, moved, or placed within the terrain)

Option one is the only way to play that. The haz terrain rules say nothing about when a model completes a move,push place take damage.

[Mastershake]

Hazardous - Terrain that is considered hazardous deals damage to models that Activate while within it, or enter it (if they are pushed, moved, or placed within the terrain)

Option one is the only way to play that. The haz terrain rules say nothing about when a model completes a move,push place take damage.

 

While technically true Nekima has Flight, which changes it a bit.

 

Flight- This model is immune to falling damage and may ignore any terrain or models while moving.

 

It's possible she takes no damage from entering (beginning her activation within hazardous would deal damage normally since she's not moving at that time) hazardous simply because the point in time that she would take the damage she ignores the terrain, or also possible that because she stops ignoring it when she lands i.e. ends a movement that she takes it at the end of the movement.  So while the answer above about taking damage as soon as a model hits the terrain is technically correct, the model it's being applied to makes it a little less clear.

[The Godlyness]

I see your point. I completely disregarded flight and incorporeal.

For flight or incorporeal I would say in my opinion that the model does not enter the terrain till it ends it movement. Since it is ignoring it till it stops.

But with out flight/incorporeal it's as soon as you touch the terrain. (Ie terror tot bbs, etc)

[Kadeton]

Flight (and Incorporeal) suggest to me that the model would take no damage for their move at all.

 

In this scenario, Nekima wouldn't take damage during her Charge. However, at the start of her next activation (assuming nothing has happened to move her out of the terrain) she would take a damage flip from the hazard.

[The Godlyness]

i agree kadeton for there move but once they end that movement they are no longer moving therefore no longer ignoring the terrain so they are well entering it at that time. Thats how i see it. even in an abstract game i find it hard to try explaining to some one that yeah my flying model lands in lava and chills like a boss. then hits you then later in the evening(next activation) realizes that it is standing in lava.

 

but i have no foot to stand on nor a foundation to build upon.

[Mastershake]

i agree kadeton for there move but once they end that movement they are no longer moving therefore no longer ignoring the terrain so they are well entering it at that time. Thats how i see it. even in an abstract game i find it hard to try explaining to some one that yeah my flying model lands in lava and chills like a boss. then hits you then later in the evening(next activation) realizes that it is standing in lava.

 

but i have no foot to stand on nor a foundation to build upon.

 

Real world logic has no place in rules discussions...or for that matter Malifaux

 

At the point in time the model is entering terrain, it is ignoring it.  I've generally been playing it as the model taking damage when it ends the move, but it's a really easy argument that it doesn't take the damage at all.

[The Godlyness]

That's my point master shake it never enters terrain till it stops moving lol. Since its no longer ignoring it. (Flight incorporeal models only don't get confused and think we are talking about something else yo readers who skip posts)

Which then it enters it. But it's definitely a toss up.

Or do you. Enter something while ignoring it which means you are not ignoring it at all.

Example ht1000 wall that is 2" wide. You can't end your movement inside it since you are not allowed to enter impassable terrain. So the flying model checks entering when it stops moving to see if it is violating any rule or affected by some ie hazardous.

Bam corner stone set.

Rebuttle go.

[Kadeton]

Hmm, I'd say the model is "pushed, moved or placed within the terrain" while it's moving. When it stops moving (i.e. when the movement is fully resolved, and Flight is no longer in effect) it isn't moved within the terrain - it's already there. There's no point in the movement process when the terrain could cause damage in which it's not being ignored.

 

Sadly, all games sacrifice "realism" for abstraction. This one doesn't even seem too bad for realism, to be honest - Nekima can presumably hover for a few seconds while attacking, but has to touch down briefly to launch herself again. I've seen birds do that loads of times.

[Barnaberible]

The wording is 'deals damage to models that activate while within it, or enters it' - I would argue that when the movement ends and flight is no longer in effect the model would enter the terrain.

[The Godlyness]

Hmm, I'd say the model is "pushed, moved or placed within the terrain" while it's moving. When it stops moving (i.e. when the movement is fully resolved, and Flight is no longer in effect) it isn't moved within the terrain - it's already there. There's no point in the movement process when the terrain could cause damage in which it's not being ignored.

 

Sadly, all games sacrifice "realism" for abstraction. This one doesn't even seem too bad for realism, to be honest - Nekima can presumably hover for a few seconds while attacking, but has to touch down briefly to launch herself again. I've seen birds do that loads of times.

I guess my question to make myself clear to people my veiw point is:

What's stopping a model with flight/incorporeal moving and ending their move inside impassable terrain. (Ie a solid wall)

[mythicFOX]

Might be a good time for someone with the rules to hand to quote the relevant parts in full, IE Flight, Black Blood, Hazardous, and Impassable

[The Godlyness]

"Hazardous - Terrain that is considered hazardous deals damage to models that Activate while within it, or enter it (if they are pushed, moved, or placed within the terrain)." (The relevant part of the paragraph)

Impassable - Models cannot enter impassable areas of terrain, which includes moving through the walls of a building or into other solid objects.

Flight: This model is immune to falling damage and may ignore any terrain or models while moving.

Incorporeal: This model ignores, and is ignored by, other models and terrain during any movement or push.

Now everyone here agrees that a model with out flight or incorporeal that enters hazardous terrain takes damage(black blood) then continues moving on.

What is being debated is where models with flight /incorporeal completely ignore the hazardous terrain even when they stop moving.

I say when the flying/incorporeal end their move they count as entering the hazardous terrain therefore take damage.

If this is not the case then if my flying model ends it move inside impassable terrain it did not enter it therefore is a valid move.

Cheers.

[Kadeton]

I guess my question to make myself clear to people my veiw point is:

What's stopping a model with flight/incorporeal moving and ending their move inside impassable terrain. (Ie a solid wall)

 

Great question. As far as I can tell, the only answer (in the scope of the rules) is "convention, and common sense".

 

You could equally apply the same logic to ending your move inside another model - note that models do not have the Impassible trait, they simply have a rule which states "A model cannot move through or over another model's base" (pg. 43). I don't think there's any way to resolve either situation according to the Rules As Written.

 

However, I think it's a stretch to compare the two terrain traits. The convention of not placing models inside impassible terrain (or other models) results from the necessity of having to physically place the model on the table - this restriction is less of a factor with areas of hazardous (but passable) terrain.

[mythicFOX]

I'm with Godlyness on this one.  

 

The moment you stop moving flight and incorporeal cease to have any effect, at this point the model will formally enter whatever terrain it is in. If that is impassible then the move is illegal and can't have been made, if it's hazardous the model takes damage.

 

This interpretation has the double win of working within the rules of the game and the laws of physics*

 

*IE not requiring you to place models inside solid objects

[Adran]

I'm with Godlyness on this one.  

 

The moment you stop moving flight and incorporeal cease to have any effect, at this point the model will formally enter whatever terrain it is in. If that is impassible then the move is illegal and can't have been made, if it's hazardous the model takes damage.

 

This interpretation has the double win of working within the rules of the game and the laws of physics*

 

*IE not requiring you to place models inside solid objects

I personally disagree on this.

It has not moving = entering which seems counter intuative.

This same arguement could be used for summonign hazadous terrian about the model and it therefore "entering" hazadous terrain.

[The Godlyness]

But the other has models sitting inside impassable objects. Its not moving therefore did not enter.

Think vassal not physically doing it. We don't need No Frankenstein desolation engine wannabe.

On the making terrain bit I see your point. But I also see me ending a move compared to just standing there.

But my thoughts have been said. And I will see how his plays out.

[mythicFOX]

It has not moving = entering which seems counter intuative.

 

Not when you think of it as;  stops moving = landing* = entering. 

 

*or re-materialising.

[Janno]

To make things more complicated: I would argue there is a difference between Flying and incorporeal. Because incorporeal models (always)  "ignore" hazardous Terrain, whereas Flying models "MAY ignore" it. So Nekima might just decide to fly halfway in, then land next to the enemy, shed black blood on him on entering hazardous terrain and move on for the rest of her movement range on foot. Or couldn´t she?

[Kadeton]

But my thoughts have been said. And I will see how his plays out.

 

Either way, I don't think the rules are particularly robust in this case. I've said my bit also - others can argue or wait for an FAQ as they choose.

[Seregon]

In my mind it's perfectly clear that you are only ignoring the terrain with flight/incorporeal while you are actively moving the model from point A to point B. The entire point of these skills is that you're able to move over/through objects that you would otherwise be stopped or slowed by. At the end of a move however, you will always land or re-materialize and at that point enter any terrain you might find yourself in.

 

You fly while you move, not while you're stationary or attacking or anything else. Had there been a "hover" ability, then that would've been another thing completely.

[Barnaberible]

I personally disagree on this.

It has not moving = entering which seems counter intuative.

This same arguement could be used for summonign hazadous terrian about the model and it therefore "entering" hazadous terrain.

Apart from making sense (ie landing in lava would hurt) I think if you want to argue semantics the key here is moved into and not moves into

If a model ends its activation in hazardous terrain after flight it has moved into it, it dosent happen immediately when it moves into it but never the less it has moved into it.

If hazardous terrain is summoned the model has not moved into it, the model hasn't moved at all so surely can't have moved into it

[Mastershake]

As a general rule, when you propose a solution to a rules dilemma, you should use the high functioning autistic test i.e. imagine trying to explain your view to someone who's very familiar with the rules, FAQ, Errata and cards doing so in a way that only references rules and makes no real-world parallels.

 

A- "She takes damage when she's done moving"

B- "Why, Hazardous Terrain says enters or ends activation?"

 

A- "She's landing"

B- "Oh ok...wait I don't see anything about 'Landing'?"

 

A- "Well she's flying so she's going to land"

B- "Is that in the flying rules or movement rules?"

 

A- "Forget about landing, she's not technically entering the terrain until she stops moving"

B- "Oh, so nobody takes damage until they're done moving?"

 

A- "No only flying or incorporeal ones"

B- "Oh alright.  Is that under the flying rules, Incorporeal rules or Hazardous Terrain?"

 

A- "Well none of them"

B- "So why is model taking damage?"

 

This test is mostly meant as a "can this be explained without having to add things not mentioned in any rules".  If something fails this test it probably needs a FAQ to get an answer (or Errata depending on what's the specific problem).

 

Even real world justifying a model with flight only taking damage if they start in Hazardous makes sense

 

A- "Why isn't she taking damage"

B- "She's flying right now.  If she has to hover over it for a while she'll get tired and have to land in the lava for a minute and take some damage, but she won't take as much damage flying over the lava as some poor smuck slogging through it."

[Seregon]

For flying:

 

1 - Is the model currently moving?

1.1 - If no or unsure, check 2.

1.2 - If yes, nothing happens.

 

2 - Is the model, after completing the previous Action, stationary inside hazardous terrain?

2.1 - If no, nothing happens.

2.2 - If yes, check 3.

 

3 - Did the model end up inside the hazardous terrain due to any kind of movement/placement effect or started its activation within it?

3.1 - If no, nothing happens

3.2 - If yes, take damage.

 

In essence, all models are fairly poor fliers and can only fly for the total distance of their Wk/Cg length at any one point before they have to land. If they have a Wk 5 and decide to walk twice they will fly 5", land, fly another 5" and then land again. In the case of a charge, they will fly their charge distance, land and then, firmly placed on the ground, proceed to attack their target.

[Mastershake]

For flying:

 

1 - Is the model currently moving?

1.1 - If no or unsure, check 2.

1.2 - If yes, nothing happens.

 

2 - Is the model, after completing the previous Action, stationary inside hazardous terrain?

2.1 - If no, nothing happens.

2.2 - If yes, check 3.

 

3 - Did the model end up inside the hazardous terrain due to any kind of movement/placement effect or started its activation within it?

3.1 - If no, nothing happens

3.2 - If yes, take damage.

 

In essence, all models are fairly poor fliers and can only fly for the total distance of their Wk/Cg length at any one point before they have to land. If they have a Wk 5 and decide to walk twice they will fly 5", land, fly another 5" and then land again. In the case of a charge, they will fly their charge distance, land and then, firmly placed on the ground, proceed to attack their target.

 

Again, in order for this to make sense you have to change core rules (either the timing of Hazardous or the definition of Enter) and nothing in any of the relevant rules entries indicates that you should do so.

[Seregon]

Well, ok, I can see your point. If the model ignores the terrain while moving and the definition of "enter" is strictly defined as being "pushed, moved, or placed within the terrain" then they will not take damage.

 

In my mind though, that definition is merely an example of entering which also would include ending up inside of it due to flight/incorporeal, in the same way the rules don't explicitly disallow for ending up on top of impassable terrain. That the models somehow keep flying until the exact moment that their next activation starts again is in my mind far more absurd and unintended than that they land after each movement.