Help Me Beat Lilith

[akaean]

Lawyers still do work.  Objection also targets Will Power, and a Paralyzed Lilith is a Lilith who is not swinging a Living Blade into your face.  Highest Authority is also nice in general for dodging attacks.

 

Lilith is not unbeatable.  What you are more likely facing is that the player at your store who uses her primarily is a cut above the grade so to speak, and everybody is scrambling to counter the model, and not realizing that it is a difference of player skill and not game balance.  Almost no amount of list tailoring will beat a better opponent in Malifaux, especially if you are neglecting the scheme pool in list building.  Which is why, coincidentally Master Disaster noted not to list build.  Because if you are so focused on countering Lilith that you don't take models to complete the schemes... you will almost certainly lose.

 

I bet you would see a similar situation if the Lilith player were to switch to Seamus, Dreamer, Perdita, or any Master really.  Malifaux as a whole is a game where everything you face against feels overpowered, but you have to remember that often times your opponents feel the same way (especially when I play Hoffman or Sonnia).  Lilith is not the best master in the game, and she is far from unbeatable.  But the player might well be the best in your local community, which has nothing to do with game balance.

 

Sonnia should be a fine Master against Lilith.  Just leave Hopkins at home.  Witchlings, the Purifying Flame, and Austringers should be all that you require to defeat Lilith.

[Tuttleboy]

You could take a look at a pair of Riflemen and an Austringer. That's 16 SS but if you've got a place to park them so that the Austringer is between the Riflemen and within  4 of them, all you have to do is focus with each first and activate the Austringer first to have the potential to dish out 16 damage, with 10 of that happening before the target gets a chance to activate. Focusing with each is a huge benefit to the models due to their inbuilt abilities and it puts you on   to hit and damage right off the bat.

[GuySmiley]

I stand corrected on the Lawyer. I was to busy thinking of guild models that attacked WP and not enough about the character itself. Sorry for the confusion. That being said they still can attack the WP and cause slow or paralyze. Also they the rest of what I said holds true with highest authority making them more survivable. Don't forget impassioned defense. Also Math is very right to warn caution with fees. When the models take damage from fees they will black blood so be very careful, or have high enough fees that it really means something. 

 

I can not think of anything the guild has that would completely turn off tangled shadows. You can make it more difficult on him which this thread has discussed. Turn three is very fast to table a crew. Which sounds like a testament to the Lilly's players skill. So he spends first turn racing across the table. Second turn tangled shadows and eating a model and growing. Meanwhile the rest of the crew hurts a model maybe kills one or two. Turn three they are just cleaning up. To kill that fast it would seem that multiple people are being hit with black blood. So spacing out a bit would help. Maybe targeting the model he is going to use for the swap rather than Lilly? Bring kill joy so when he kills a model you have something swinging right back?

 

It really depends on you the player. Myyra said executioner is grow bait. I have had success with him. Neither of us are wrong we just have different playstyles and against different groups. That is just an example of why I don't think a step by step on killing Lilly is really out there. 

 

But I could be wrong and misreading what you are looking for. 

[Bodiless]

If you aren't entirely set on your master, Perdita with her +2 WP aura (Aura Ancestral?) is a huge thorn in the side for Tangle Shadows. Shadows is only Ca5, so any willpower buff will really hurt its effectiveness. Plus Perdita is more than capable of removing Lilith's heavy hitters or Lilith herself.

[Dirial]

Here is a little bit of Dgraz' wisdom: If Perdita cannot handle it, apply Criid!

 

No, really. Try those two. You might want to play Perdita with less Enforcers as she normally does but I have had success with her. She's good against almost all Neverborn (appropriately).

[Math Mathonwy]

I'm dubious about going to 50 stones; it seems like she'd gain more out of it than anyone else would, but I'll bring it up at my store.

The Strategies and Schemes work a lot better at 50 stones as well. In 35SS you run out of models to do Strategies and still fight so fighting becomes more important. Also, tabling someone on round three at 50SS is a lot more difficult. Finally, in 35SS Assassinate is really good since often you should be trying to eliminate the enemy Master anyway in such small games while Bodyguard for example is really difficult since you can't afford to be careful with a high cost model. Distract is also more difficult simply because there's fewer enemies to apply the condition to. And Scheme marker Schemes are more difficult since there's fewer models to drop them. And Vendetta is easier because fewer models. And so on.

35SS games can be fun and they can be balanced but Malifaux really is built and balanced on 50SS games.

What I'm taking from the thread so far is that no one else is having this problem

I wish to stress here that Lilith is a very powerful Master and Tangle is a very powerful ability. All in all Lilith has a veritable smorgasbord of options on how she can utilize her abilities and in the hands of a good player she is a very difficult opponent.

[Twg]

As a Lillith player I can honestly tell you that she is far from unbeatable. Her major weaknesses are her relatively low wound count, the lack of healing in the NB faction and low WP stat. Tangle shadows is great, but far from unstoppable due to the low cast value and the need to use a SS unless your lucky enough to get a high mask. I find that any models not requiring LOS are a real pain so Austringers are great for knocking off wounds early game. The Peacebringer is a real auto-take against Lillith. It has good defence and armour which negates her attack and hits like hell. It is also fast enough with nimble and the fast upgrade to make any Lilltih player real careful about where they attack. I haven't played many small games with Lillith (40 being lowest) so I'm not sure if she is that much better at that level.

[Dirial]

The Peacebringer is a real auto-take against Lillith. It has good defence and armour which negates her attack and hits like hell. It is also fast enough with nimble and the fast upgrade to make any Lilltih player real careful about where they attack. I haven't played many small games with Lillith (40 being lowest) so I'm not sure if she is that much better at that level.

 

This confused me a little. Are you talking about the Peacekeeper? That's a great model, for sure, but it's Df is 4, it has no Nimble, and there is no Fast upgrade in Guild. Also, with Ml 6, I find it just bounces off Lilith's Df trigger.

 

All of that said, if your opponent played Hoffmann, the Peacekeeper could have done all that, because Hoffmann is a badass.

[Bloodrush]

Ha ha ha we all forgot about Pine Box! But I guess she will see that one coming from a mile away.

[Dirial]

Ha ha ha we all forgot about Pine Box! But I guess she will see that one coming from a mile away.

 

Naa, I didn't.

 

That's easier said than done. Wp attacks are not very widespread in Guild. And while it great to dump Lilith into a Pine Box, Lilith usually stays clear of Death Marshals if she's smart.

 

I never forget Marshals. But I have found they seldom work against Lilith, if the player of her is smart.

[Twg]

Apologies I did mean the Peace Keeper (I suppose that's what you get posting at 4am!). And correct again with Hoffman. The damn thing is just so tough with the Hoff and power loop. Lillith's trigger is great if she gets the mask trigger. However, I tend to find that gets used elsewhere. 

[wopr1986]

I've only played against her at 50ss and she's easy enough to deal with but at 35 I dunno maybe criid with counterspell dashell a sarge for + on wp and 2 riflemen and have a 14" death bubble that's hard to lure. Maybe lady J who does whatever she wants and dashell guild sergeant and 2 riflemen providing cover fire?

In both cases the sarge is good for moving markers out of the "safe zone" and the + wp flip is nice, dashell makes the rifle men very strong and then it's down to a master of preference criid seems the best choice at a glance

[Thaarup]

Don´t forget that Guild Guards also have Menace which can affect Lilith from a distance.