Can Stuffed Piglets be "killed"?

[Aesop]

Can stuffed piglets ever really be killed?

 

It Goes Pop!: When this model is killed, it may take the Bacon Bomb Action before being removed from play.

 

(1) Bacon Bomb: Flip a card which can not be cheated and apply the following effect depending on the suit of the card. After resolving this Action, if this model is still in play, sacrifice it.

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So my question is to how the timing works of all of that. Does the sacrifice happen before the pig is removed to play due to being killed?

 

I'm asking for Make Them Suffer purposes, btw.

[Ausplosions]

Karina has her upgrade.

[rgarbonzo]

Model A reduces Stuffed Piglet to 0 wounds

Stuffed Piglet is now "killed" - drops a marker and removed from the game immediately
Bacon Bomb interrupts the timing causing you to flip a card off the top of your deck

You must now continue to resolve the "killed" effects which is immediately removing the model from the table. 

You have resolved the action so you check to see if the model is "in play", it is not it has been killed.

[The Godlyness]

Would you rather look at make them suffer as the model has been killed so they score the point even if you sacrifice the pig? Same with reckoning.

You can't take the action unless killed so before you take the action I gain vp.

Or need one more for reckoning

So if it's sacrificed or not is actually completely irrelevant. Since it is killed Before hand.

You can of course take the action when it's not killed and deny vp that way if you desire.

[Ngangata]

Model A reduces Stuffed Piglet to 0 wounds

Stuffed Piglet is now "killed" - drops a marker and removed from the game immediately

Bacon Bomb interrupts the timing causing you to flip a card off the top of your deck

You must now continue to resolve the "killed" effects which is immediately removing the model from the table. 

You have resolved the action so you check to see if the model is "in play", it is not it has been killed.

 

Why are you not fully completing the Bacon Bomb action, part of which is sacrificing the model, before continuing with the "killed" effects.

It Goes Pop! instruct us to take the Bacon Bomb action before removing the model from play. Not part of the action, the whole action. The sacrifice is part of the action, despite happening after resolution, so still happens before being removed from play by being killed.

Also you keep moving "immediately removed" around in the resolution timing. Once " immediately" is replaced by another activity, beat dropping a corpse, or a scheme marker from finish the job, or an ability, it is no longer immediate. You cannot delay immediately until later in the process because it literally means " without delay".

 

Would you rather look at make them suffer as the model has been killed so they score the point even if you sacrifice the pig? Same with reckoning.

You can't take the action unless killed so before you take the action I gain vp.

Or need one more for reckoning

So if it's sacrificed or not is actually completely irrelevant. Since it is killed Before hand.

You can of course take the action when it's not killed and deny vp that way if you desire.

Its sacrifice is relevant, because the sacrifice rules tell us that the model does not count as being killed. In my opinion it does retroactivly remove the killed status. I think a better question would be at what point does reckoning check for killed models.

Ngangata

[Adran]

Actually the sacrifice happens after the bacon bomb is completed. The Bacon bomb action will deal damage to the stuffed pig. So duirnig that part of the action the stuffed pig would be killed again. and removed before the sacrifice part of Bacon bomb comes into play.

 

This doesn't answer the question of what model killed the Stuiffed piglet, but I don't think anythign stops the original killed.

 

EDIT

As a re-read of what I've said, I'd like to modify it a little.

During the resolution of the Bacon bomb action the model will be removed as killed. Its on 0 wounds so it should eb removed. (I don't think it becomes killed again, but at teh end of the action all killed models should be removed and it is a killed model)

The reason for the sacrifice line in the action is that it is perfectly possible for a stuffed piglet to take the action when it is still alive, and if it was at full health, only one of the outcomes would kill it.

 

The overpower actions etc. occur before the end of the previous action, which is whay they can still target a killed model.

[rgarbonzo]

Bacon Bomb: Flip a card which can not be cheated and apply the following effect depending on the suit of the card. After resolving this Action, if this model is still in play, sacrifice it.

After resolving the action the model is removed as killed so it cannot be in play.

[Math Mathonwy]

The reason for the sacrifice line in the action is that it is perfectly possible for a stuffed piglet to take the action when it is still alive, and if it was at full health, only one of the outcomes would kill it.

In the interest of clarity, note that the bomb is a Pulse so wouldn't affect the Piglet (unless I'm missing something).

[Adran]

Bah you're right. That'll teach me to look more carefully. Ok, so the piglet will survive the action if it was alive before hand.

But there will still be part of the Action rsolution that will be checking for killed models and removing them. The Stuffed pig is a killed model. It will be removed before the end of the action resolution, therefore it isn't in play when the action ends to be sacrificed.

 

Who knew healthy pigs blow up into smaller pieces...

[Ngangata]

As a re-read of what I've said, I'd like to modify it a little.

During the resolution of the Bacon bomb action the model will be removed as killed. Its on 0 wounds so it should eb removed. (I don't think it becomes killed again, but at teh end of the action all killed models should be removed and it is a killed model)

The reason for the sacrifice line in the action is that it is perfectly possible for a stuffed piglet to take the action when it is still alive, and if it was at full health, only one of the outcomes would kill it.

 

The overpower actions etc. occur before the end of the previous action, which is whay they can still target a killed model.

 

But there will still be part of the Action rsolution that will be checking for killed models and removing them. The Stuffed pig is a killed model. It will be removed before the end of the action resolution, therefore it isn't in play when the action ends to be sacrificed.

I have re-read the sections in the rules manual on simple duels, opposed duels, actions, general timing etc. and unless i am just missing it there is no such rule that checks for and removes killed models.

 

 

 

Bacon Bomb: Flip a card which can not be cheated and apply the following effect depending on the suit of the card. After resolving this Action, if this model is still in play, sacrifice it.

After resolving the action that reduced the model to 0 wounds the model is removed as killed.

 

Fixed that for you.

All of this is happening inside the resolution of the attack that reduced the piglet to 0 wounds to begin with (Actions Causing Actions). The piglet isnt removed until we get back to resolving that action. Which cant happen until we finish resolving the Bacon Bomb. And the Bacon Bomb isnt completed until we resolve any effects that it spawned. Like "After Damaging", or "After Succeeding" or the above mentioned "After Resolving" effects.

 

 

Ngangata

[rgarbonzo]

What if, whatever killed it is taking another swing at it due to a Trigger forcing another attack?

Resolve the next attack as normal. Can't kill a model twice.

[rgarbonzo]

I have re-read the sections in the rules manual on simple duels, opposed duels, actions, general timing etc. and unless i am just missing it there is no such rule that checks for and removes killed models.

 

 

Fixed that for you.

All of this is happening inside the resolution of the attack that reduced the piglet to 0 wounds to begin with (Actions Causing Actions). The piglet isnt removed until we get back to resolving that action. Which cant happen until we finish resolving the Bacon Bomb. And the Bacon Bomb isnt completed until we resolve any effects that it spawned. Like "After Damaging", or "After Succeeding" or the above mentioned "After Resolving" effects.

 

 

Ngangata

 

Actually the BB action is resolved after you flip and pulse damage. Then the killed timing kicks back in since it was interrupted. Since the check is a separate sentence and it states "After Resolving" which is after any flips/duels/damage. The check would look for a model that cannot be there since it must be removed as part of the Killed timing and rules.

[Cornelious1424]

The poor little piggie is killed, thus tirggering "It Goes Pop", would then take the Bacon Bomb and would still be considered "killed", not sac'd. If the poor little piggie takes the Bacon Bomb action while it's still in play (as either its own action or forced to do so by another model), after resolving the effects of Bacon bomb it would then be sacrificed and not considered killed as described by the action. Stuffed piggies that are killed by other models are considered killed, drop CC and give VP for strats and schemes. Stuffed piggies that deliberately take the Bacon Bomb action or are foreced to by other models, do not drop CC as they are sac'd. That's how I see it. The sacrifice after is for those models still in play, so you don't get a CC to summon a fresh piggie to start the process over again.

[Ngangata]

Fair enough. Seems I am the only one reading it differently, and Justin's like of the above post is quite the nail in the coffin of my argument.

Thanks for hearing me out.

 

 

Ngangata