Lady Sonia, confiscated law and the malifaux child

[SurreyLee]

Sorry if this has come up before but I've had a trawl and couldn't find anything on the tourney.

Sonia casts her 0 action and takes +2 ca for the turn. As the +2ca applies to her stat, does the malifaux child suffer its -3ca to the 7 (original cost to cast flame wall for example) or the 9 (taking into consideration the increase from confiscated law.

Thanks in advance

I'd posted over at the guild section of the forum and had a fair few mixed opinions.

[Dirial]

Because you just reposted it again for the developers to see, I link to the thread on the Guild forums and reiterate my opinion that it doesn't work. Malifaux Child copies the action, not the condition, and can thus not make use of it. I acknowledge however that the condition's wording of "stat" makes it somewhat ambiguous.

[Kadeton]

I think the main ambiguity is in "Just like you!" lacking reference to the 'printed action'. It's a shame that this comes just after the card got a re-print.

[SurreyLee]

Thanks for linking up dirial, I didn't know how to do that.....8)

[wizuriel]

hmmm now really not sure on how this should be played. Pg 29 of the big rule book kind of implies that stat modifiers are only taken into account during duels in which case it wouldn't apply. Though the card says just to increase the CA to the end of the turn and card rules override main rules so.....

[urgol]

I am quite new to Sonnia's crew and browsing through the forum about information. I think this does not work.

- "Just like you!" tagets a CA action and "confiscated lore" is not such. Wording for a CA action would look like the one for "Inferno".

- "Just like you!" says "with an AP cost of 1", since "Confiscated Lore" is an AP with cost of 0, the action is not a valid target. I would persume that the wording would be "1 or less"

-If the target would be legal, than only Sonnia would get buffed, Malifaux controlls the ability, but not the effect.

[The Godlyness]

(0) Confiscated Lore: This model may discard one Soulstone or two cards. If it does, choose Ca, Df, or Wp. This model gains the following Condition until the end of the Turn, “Quick Study: This model has +2 to the chosen stat.”

 

1) Flameburst (Ca 7 / TN: 14 / Rst: Df/ Rg: 14): Target model suffers 2/3 :blast /5       damage.

    Consuming Flame: After damaging, all models damaged gain the Burning +1 Condition.

 

 

(1) Just Like You!: This Action may be taken once per Turn. Cast one of this Crew’s Leader’s Ca Actions with an AP cost of 1. This Action suffers -3 Ca. This Action receives a    and any resulting damage flips receive a .

 

 

Malifaux child Takes the (1) FlameBurst at -3 CA. so his Action would be at 4CA.

 

Malifaux Child Does not have a Condition Quick Study. So in no way shape or form does he get +2 CA

 

The Condition of Quick Study Does not make (1) Flameburst CA 9. (1)Flameburst is CA 7. But when Sonnia Casts it and has Quick Study condition it becomes CA 9.

 

Now if you can tell me how the MC benifits from Quick study condition i would be impressed

[urgol]

hmm reading is an advantage. I would say MC casts Flameburst for CA6, benefiting from Confiscated Lore. I persume CA7 is replaced by CA9. Yes, the wording is  a bit off, but I would treat the actions as Obey, but targeting CA actions only. The target model casts the action, the MC controlls the action. I now see the dilemma

[The Godlyness]

I am now rightly confused. Befuddled. Scratching my head in pure unadulterated astonishment.

Where is the condition on Sonnia that says (1) Flame burst gets +2 ca?

I see the condition quick study which gives Sonnia +2 ca in general which would effect flame burst when she casts it. Also effects flame walls.

But no condition or ability says flame burst gets +2 ca.

Now if quick study said something like

Vanish: After placing the Smoke Markers,this model may take a Shadow Stride Action, This Action gains +2 Ca.

But was a condition you would be quite right in thinking the MC would gain a benefit.

But the action he is taking is only (1) flame burst at -3ca. Not gain Sonnia's condtions and then cast her shit.

[urgol]

Thanks for taking the time to reply. The coffe did not kick in before I replied. Like you said, no bonus. This will help in general to break down the wording. Our gaming group is still at the beginning of Malifaux and Malifaux mindset need to sink in. Thanks.

[Dirial]

Yay! Godlyness agreed with me!

 

He is also absolutely right, of course. (At least in my opinion.)

[Kadeton]

Where is the condition on Sonnia that says (1) Flame burst gets +2 ca?

I see the condition quick study which gives Sonnia +2 ca in general which would effect flame burst when she casts it. Also effects flame walls.

 

While I agree with your conclusions, this right here is the hole that opens it up to alternative readings.

 

There's nothing on Quick Study which says to apply the +2 Ca to Flame Burst "when she casts it". It's a +2 Ca to all her Ca actions, all the time - by extension (and somewhat liberal interpretation) this makes the copied action a Ca 9.

 

I think this is just an interaction that was overlooked, otherwise the wording on Quick Study would have been tightened up to avoid it. I would play it that the Child casts Flame Burst at Ca 4.

[wizuriel]

(0) Confiscated Lore: This model may discard one Soulstone or two cards. If it does, choose Ca, Df, or Wp. This model gains the following Condition until the end of the Turn, “Quick Study: This model has +2 to the chosen stat.”

 

1) Flameburst (Ca 7 / TN: 14 / Rst: Df/ Rg: 14): Target model suffers 2/3 :blast /5       damage.

    Consuming Flame: After damaging, all models damaged gain the Burning +1 Condition.

 

 

(1) Just Like You!: This Action may be taken once per Turn. Cast one of this Crew’s Leader’s Ca Actions with an AP cost of 1. This Action suffers -3 Ca. This Action receives a    and any resulting damage flips receive a .

 

 

 

The condition gives Sonnia +2 to her stat. When the Child uses her spells Sonnia still has the condition until the end of the turn. Why would Sonnia's CA suddenly go back down just because someone else is referencing her ability? 

[The Godlyness]

The condition gives Sonnia +2 to her stat. When the Child uses her spells Sonnia still has the condition until the end of the turn. Why would Sonnia's CA suddenly go back down just because someone else is referencing her ability?

I think we are in agreement. By that I mean as you just said Sonnia gets +2.

If quick study specifically said (1) flame burst and (0) inferno and (1) cherufes imprint etc...got +2 to the Action until the end of the turn then yes the action it self is modified until the end of turn in which case the child would benefit.

But the general statement that Sonnia gets +2 does not influence anything until She (Sonnia) casts a spell which then her ca 7 becomes +2 to 9.

To try making the obvious disconnect shown. By Your logic if the MC tried casting (1)Machine puppet from Hoffman who is surrounded by machines he would gain +2 since clearly he is Hoffman and benefits from his abilities.

To further make your idea seem ridiculous. By your logic again if Sonnia was standing near a night terror who used (1) Night Falls: Until the start of this model's next Activation, all enemy models within 8 suffer -4 Rg to all Ca Actions, to a minimum Rg of 1. The malifaux child who is not in the night terrors range would be effected since Sonnia and her Ca actions are.

So to me it's quite obvious that you take the action and only the action. Since that is what MC tells us to do. Not take the action +/- Any modifiers to the model originally possessing the action.

[wizuriel]

If quick study specifically said (1) flame burst and (0) inferno and (1) cherufes imprint etc...got +2 to the Action until the end of the turn then yes the action it self is modified until the end of turn in which case the child would benefit.

But the general statement that Sonnia gets +2 does not influence anything until She (Sonnia) casts a spell which then her ca 7 becomes +2 to 9.

 

This is where I disagree with you. Pg 29 of the big rulebook mentions if a model has a stat modifier you add it whenever the ability is calculated. You need to reference Sonnia's CA which would require calculating it.

 

Modifiers and abilities like night terror specify they add their effect only on the casting action. If Sonnia suffered from night terror and something like Yin's negative flip to CA I would argue that doesn't carry over since all those abilities are specific to those model's casting action and not the ability/stats. 

[The Godlyness]

This is where I disagree with you. Pg 29 of the big rulebook mentions if a model has a stat modifier you add it whenever the ability is calculated. You need to reference Sonnia's CA which would require calculating it.

 

Modifiers and abilities like night terror specify they add their effect only on the casting action. If Sonnia suffered from night terror and something like Yin's negative flip to CA I would argue that doesn't carry over since all those abilities are specific to those model's casting action and not the ability/stats.

Just to be clear you think that if the MC cast machine puppet he would benefit from

from Empower: This model gains +1 Ca (max of +2) for each other friendly Construct within 4.