missing mechanics and rules.

[wadesauce]

I was looking, and i didn't see any clarification or options for certain rules.

1. Is grappling anywhere? One of my players is a max strength Ht3 monster who wants to grapple. I can't find rules for it.

2. A character wanted to kick someone off of a chair from behind. I resolved it by adding a skill check for his desired effect, but it was a sloppy solution. I think a few more common combat maneuvers like shoving and sunder attacks should have rules.

3. Crafting skills. How do you use them? I might of missed it, but i didn't really see anywhere that explains crafting skills and how it works.

4. What melee weapons fall under melee, and which fall under heavy. I'd like it to be set in the book and not something I have to determine myself.

5. More of an annoyance then anything. I feel like the melee weapon list is too short. When one of my players inquired about buying a katana I was surprised it was not on the list, given the high amount of far east influence. I added my own stats, but weapons like this should be in there.

~~~ Please don't just tell me to stop complaining and that a good fate master would just improvise. I am improvising. I'm not here to just complain, I'm here to brainstorm solutions to these problems, or get corrected if i over looked something.

And also to wyrd, although I may be annoyed by these oversights, thank you for a very nice game. Besides a few problems, the setting, story driven mechanics, and unique magic system are very good and I'm enjoying it thoroughly. I understand it's your first attempt at a role playing game, during an overhaul of your flagship game, during non-stop play testing, through a volatile crowd funding experience (which I was a part of.) with all that to consider, thank you.

Man that was lengthy

[Mister Shine]

1) Empty Handed fighting adds a slow effect at ranks 4+ of pugilism. I would run that as thematically grappling with the person, but if they want "No I want to lock them DOWN" you could make a manifested power, with the Ice immuto based ON pugilism so basically first hit would slow, second hit would be the "grapple" manifested power {The Ice Dragon Hold} and it would paralyze the whatever if it hits

 

2) Not sure I agree here, I find that too many minor actions makes for stopping the story to look up what sundering values are, how hard is a door, wait no, its banded metal so look it up again. I find it much easier just to ask for a TN (difficulty level of how hard the door should be) might challenge. The challenge levels are on the back of the FM screen, it feels more elegant to gameplay flow IMO

 

3) Pretty FM decision on this one. Roughly 1/4 the price of whatever is listed in the Guild store in supplies, Crafting rank needs to be a certain level, aproximations give in Players Guide, and then assuming they have the proper tools just an appropriate amount of time (again, up to the FM). Basically I would let the Fated craft the thing they want assuming they had a few days of downtime and then if they needed something RIGHT NOW, you create an Ongoing Challenge based on their crafting skill. Could use some fleshing out, but it DOES allow an FM to fiat canceling any munchkining

 

4) The "enlarged " customization gives melee weapons the heavy trait, or any two handed weapon if you should be making one up yourself.

 

5) Kinda smacks of what I said back at 2) but not every weapon on the planet needs rules. There's no reason you couldnt reskin a cavalry sabre for the roll. I really dont want to have a D&D situation with 300 weapons with miniscule differences. Again, opinion, but I dont think the differences between the two kinds of swords necessitate another entry. But there's always expansions to have weird weapons that do 0/1/5 or something.

[wadesauce]

1. For grappling I think maybe creating it's own skill and damage/effect spread, simular to publish/martial arts, a lot less damage then the others focusing on effects.

2. I can understand that. Not bogging down the game with too many rules. Although the situation of wanting someone shoved with your kick, i feel there is an option better suited then just adding on a TN that he had to meet with athletics to add the effect like I did.

3. I simply disagree with having the Fate master decide how crafting should work in his/her game. The Fate master has a hard enough time balancing combats, writing stories that need to tie into cryptic fates, developing a rich story and environment, balancing sandbox time with fate-fulfilling quests, let alone having to create his own system for how the crafting works. Number three is really my only rant, because I feel like the planned future books will touch on these and I feel like we will need to wait until future books are released to finalize mechanics highlighted in the core book. Like waiting for the construct book for construct crafting. Etc.

4. I recently read that. And my understanding is then. Enlarged upgrade for heavy melee, and pneumatic upgrades are for the pneumatic (weapon) skill. The thing that throws me off is the gate spear, and the rail hammer seem like obviously two handed weapons, and nothing in their rule entry suggests that they are "enlarged" two handed, or heavy melee.

I had a player who wanted to start the game with 2 gate spears he intended on dual wielding, lol.

5. It's opinion I suppose, but if a sword, is a sword, is a sword, then every sword is just a calvary sabre renamed? If an axe is an axe, all axes are boarding axe?

The list should have just read, sword, axe, knife, club, hammer, spear. Upgrade and flavor as necessary in the rules. Lol.

[Mister Shine]

Yeah the Rail Hammer should have Heavy already on it I think. I wouldnt allow enlargement since its already 2 handed, but either way, could use some clarification. On Katanas, I probably got all ruffled because I think they're way over used and rated. Flavour is necessary for an RPG game, I just dont want to see 4,000 variants of the same weapon with 3,997 of them not being used because mechanically a Longsword is just plain better than a whatever sword. Gate Spears are just javelins so you could absolutely dual wield them. Although I'd apply a [-] flip to social challenges with anyone who saw you fight because you looked like a doof.

 

On Grappling, maybe a future book could include an advanced pursuit for it? I'd complain a bit if there was yet another melee skill tree to climb. Would also allow for martial art characters to do thematic chi-block type razmatazz.

 

A general talent for Ht3/StrX characters might be a good source of pushes

 

Crafting is pretty simple though, have tools (crafting kit or suitable lab/workshop/whatever), 1/4 the listed value in parts, have enough narrative time to build a thing (a quick judgement call isnt too hard here; you could assemble a gun in a day, a peacekeeper in perhaps a bit longer) thing is made. If under pressure run some flips. Still, wouldnt mind it being a bit more codified.

[Mister Shine]

Also double postal sounds like a description Im going to have to use on a crazed townsfolk in some setting

 

"He's mad guys. He's gone... double postal"

[Brewmaster]

This is one of the things you'll bump into with a "Storyteller" game. "Grapple rules" or more meta textually "specific events that fall outside basic rules" are often left up to GM adjudication since the power in this system and storyteller systems universally is in the hands of the person running the game.

That being said, simple solution:

General Talent "grappling stuff"

Your Martial Arts attacks gain the following trigger:

Tome "grappled: after damaging, opponent is slow".

You tie the tricksy maneuvers with Martial Arts, it's a talent players can pick up first thing so they're not waiting, easy mechanics to cover the flavor. This is how I would solve the grappling request.

For weapons, I've actually got a lil thing I'm gonna write up on Rapiers and Katanas, so that might help

[wadesauce]

Auto correct for the win!

Believe me, I totally understand about overuse of katana. Ever play vampire the masquerade? Should be renamed vampire the katana trench coats.

Btw, that's exactly what I told the guy, "fine, dual wield gate spears, but everyone's going to avoid you and shun you. Because your a psycho walking around downtown with two spears."

I think I'm going to play the book straight for a while longer before I intend to fix or home brew anything.

This rules set is really flexible, most of are group is really crunch focused roll players, so sometimes a loose rule set is awkward for us.

[Omenbringer]

Though I agree that the Game doesn't benefit from a million weapon entries that are all essentially the same, I do think that there should be a decent selection of defined common melee weapons (similar to the manner in which firearms were handled). It wouldn't be difficult to create a handful of standard melee weapons in each category which present viable and diverse options.

[Jinx]

Personally I love that not everything is mapped out in insane tables that cover 1/3 of the book, it gives me more freedom to create my own stuff

 

And the katana would just be a sword with the folded steel upgrade wouldn't it?

[DeleteAccount]

This rules set is really flexible, most of are group is really crunch focused roll players, so sometimes a loose rule set is awkward for us.

I know your pain, my usual group love numbercrunching in Pathfinder, though we have done our narratives too. It's just accepting that the tale is a lot more important to everything than the stats and the ruleset is mostly on making the most of the tale part.

[Malsqueek]

What I've done for things like grappling is doing opposed might tests, and then take a note from our favorite classic fantasy. First success grabs 'em. Second success locks them in, then you can start kidney punching. They make tests to break your hold, and then to get free, or to apply their own hold.

 

Similarly, kicking someone out of a chair would effectively be an opposed Grace test. You re trying to do it fast and smooth enough to turn them on their butt. They are trying to end up on their feet instead of butt. Heck, I'd even let my Fated do foot sweeps to knock prone with a simple opposed Grace test if they felt so inclined. Alternately, if someone who is a big beefcake wants to put someone on their behind, but their Grace is terrible, treat it like a bull rush. Opposed Might v. Grace for a knockdown.

 

You really just need to determine 3 things:

 

1. What Aspect and or Skill best fits the attempted action. If there is an arguable tie, let the Fated choose (Engineering v. Artifacting for manipulating  a strange console for instance)

 

2. Based upon how well the skill fits, how hard is this going to be (use the difficulty chart, or apply +/-2 modifiers as reasonable)

 

3. Is this a thing that is going to be an immediate or ongoing challenge?

 

Once you have those three things, there really isn't much of anything that the system doesn't do well (aside from crafting... yet). TTB is very powerful for setting good dramatic scenes, if you are unsure of how to do a thing, try making your player suggest the appropriate skills.

[Ad1]

I was looking, and i didn't see any clarification or options for certain rules.

1. Is grappling anywhere? One of my players is a max strength Ht3 monster who wants to grapple. I can't find rules for it.

2. A character wanted to kick someone off of a chair from behind. I resolved it by adding a skill check for his desired effect, but it was a sloppy solution. I think a few more common combat maneuvers like shoving and sunder attacks should have rules.

3. Crafting skills. How do you use them? I might of missed it, but i didn't really see anywhere that explains crafting skills and how it works.

4. What melee weapons fall under melee, and which fall under heavy. I'd like it to be set in the book and not something I have to determine myself.

5. More of an annoyance then anything. I feel like the melee weapon list is too short. When one of my players inquired about buying a katana I was surprised it was not on the list, given the high amount of far east influence. I added my own stats, but weapons like this should be in there.

~~~ Please don't just tell me to stop complaining and that a good fate master would just improvise. I am improvising. I'm not here to just complain, I'm here to brainstorm solutions to these problems, or get corrected if i over looked something.

And also to wyrd, although I may be annoyed by these oversights, thank you for a very nice game. Besides a few problems, the setting, story driven mechanics, and unique magic system are very good and I'm enjoying it thoroughly. I understand it's your first attempt at a role playing game, during an overhaul of your flagship game, during non-stop play testing, through a volatile crowd funding experience (which I was a part of.) with all that to consider, thank you.

Man that was lengthy

 

1. General Talent: Grapple

Requirement: Specialized skill with Martial Arts or Pugilism.

 

A skilled Attacker is often able to subdue and slow an enemy restricting them from being able to act. Choose a required skill. All attacks with the chosen skill gain the following Trigger:

Masks: Damage flip is 0 / 0 / 1 and the defender looses 1 AP

 

Why Masks? From Page 213 Fated Almanac, Masks: Mobility is lost when a character damages their legs. It could be an annoyance, like a twisted ankle, or the character could be left watching his life pump out onto the street from a bloody stump. And from Page 185 Fated Almanac, Masks: Those with an affinity for Masks have a tendency for misdirection and avoidance. This is most commonly associated with the Neverborn and their ilk. Magic that deals with protection, control, and manipulation are most commonly governed by this Suit. My reasoning is that masks is to do with movement/mobility, misdirection and avoidance. It could be argued that grappling is linked to all those things.

 

It will also force a melee based character to make a decision if they're looking at taking Skill specialisation aiming towards grappling combat (Masks) or damage (Rams). It would appear that at high levels pugilism is the prefered skill for a grappling specialist since it already has the slowed condition on some damaging attacks.

 

I'd also playtest this a lot to see what the impact it has on the game. I could see a dedicated grappler struggling with an enemy while other team members lay waste. Maybe you could introduce some kind of shooting into engagements rules for melee attacks against grappling Fated and FM characters. Rules like this can make fights far easier than the rules originally were designed to be. Loosing AP is a big deal and seriously restricts options. So be very wary of its impact on the system. As I suggested I'd playtest it a lot before using it as a full houserule. I'd also make it clear it's not complete immobilazation, the combatants are struggling and grappling not one fully subdued, even with 0 AP to spend. It might also allow a character to use a 0AP action or use the talents melee expert, ranged expert or nimble to get an action.

 

You said you were looking to ideas if I had players requesting some kind of grappling rules, this is how I'd look at approaching it based on what is currently in game.

 

2. Why use special rules for it. Just ask for a targeted melee attack (+4 TN) and let the win result be the defender being prone rather than damage. I like to KIS and focus on narrative.

 

3. No you didn't miss it. There are some details in the equipment section about 0.25 normal price if you have tools and time. But if you read the crafting skills section is says that more detail can be found in the Fatemaster Almanac, but nope, nothing there. I agree though, would be like to have more detailed crafting rules especially since it indicates this is how income can be generated by Fated.

 

4. A Gate Spear has custom polearm stats (no writeup for custom polearms so no indication if they are two handed weapons but using KIS I'd say they are) with thrown custom added to it. A rail hammer is a custom bludgeon with heavy stats added to it. So I'd say yes it's a heavy weapon. So I think you could reasonably argue both those weapons are two handed therefore heavy melee.

 

5. And yes a katana is a custom blade (15s) with folded steel custom (10s) added to it. Our group came to the decision that you could only add the custom enhancements to the custom melee weapons table and our FM only allows us 1 custom upgrade although we could embellish the weapon and have something else as well. Otherwise the weapons just become stupid. So a custom polearm with folded steel upgrade could be a naginata or a custom bludgeon with 'folded steel' could be made of 'dense' metals and give the same effect. Throwing knife can't be made unfortunately using custom rules unfortunately as you have to use the custom blade template. But we came up with something that was between a normal knife and shuriken (from the FM Almanac Advanced Pursuits). I posted it on the forums here a while back if you want to go looking for it.

 

What we'd really like is an errata or FAQ released to clarify some of these issues.

 

Mind you none of this stuff is the weirdest rule oversight we've found so far. But we'll wait for an indication there will be some kind of FAQ/Errata before asking the harder questions for which it appears there is no answer. And don't even get us started on the actual usefulness of Hobbled condition as it is written in the book. As for the dumber combinations that are in play we're just setting them aside as 'not what designers intended'.

 

Loving TtB even with it's rule issues. World is great and the narrative focus works well for our group.

[wadesauce]

1. General Talent: Grapple

Requirement: Specialized skill with Martial Arts or Pugilism.

A skilled Attacker is often able to subdue and slow an enemy restricting them from being able to act. Choose a required skill. All attacks with the chosen skill gain the following Trigger:

Masks: Damage flip is 0 / 0 / 1 and the defender looses 1 AP

Why Masks? From Page 213 Fated Almanac, Masks: Mobility is lost when a character damages their legs. It could be an annoyance, like a twisted ankle, or the character could be left watching his life pump out onto the street from a bloody stump. And from Page 185 Fated Almanac, Masks: Those with an affinity for Masks have a tendency for misdirection and avoidance. This is most commonly associated with the Neverborn and their ilk. Magic that deals with protection, control, and manipulation are most commonly governed by this Suit. My reasoning is that masks is to do with movement/mobility, misdirection and avoidance. It could be argued that grappling is linked to all those things.

It will also force a melee based character to make a decision if they're looking at taking Skill specialisation aiming towards grappling combat (Masks) or damage (Rams). It would appear that at high levels pugilism is the prefered skill for a grappling specialist since it already has the slowed condition on some damaging attacks.

I'd also playtest this a lot to see what the impact it has on the game. I could see a dedicated grappler struggling with an enemy while other team members lay waste. Maybe you could introduce some kind of shooting into engagements rules for melee attacks against grappling Fated and FM characters. Rules like this can make fights far easier than the rules originally were designed to be. Loosing AP is a big deal and seriously restricts options. So be very wary of its impact on the system. As I suggested I'd playtest it a lot before using it as a full houserule. I'd also make it clear it's not complete immobilazation, the combatants are struggling and grappling not one fully subdued, even with 0 AP to spend. It might also allow a character to use a 0AP action or use the talents melee expert, ranged expert or nimble to get an action.

You said you were looking to ideas if I had players requesting some kind of grappling rules, this is how I'd look at approaching it based on what is currently in game.

I feel that is a really clunky way to handle grappling. And one shouldn't have to take a general talent just to even have to option to grapple. Anyone can do it, just a difference in skill.

What we came up with was an opposed athletics check, and the target is pulled into base contact and the two characters have the grappled condition.

Grappled condition: make an opposed athletics check, 1ap: winner gets to a) make a melee or unarmed attack, b. ) release the grapple, or c) knock the target prone.

We are tinkering with added talents so one may specialize in grappling.

.

I really like your suggestion for point 2. I haven't that about that. Up the difficulty for targeted attacks, (specific suit added on. Basically) or for combat maneuvers. Nice. Elegant

I disagree with everyone saying a katana is just a calvary saber with the folded steel upgrade. What about low quality katana? What about high quality longsword? Initially I looked at enemy damage spreads for katana stats, punk zombies and ronin both use katana but have different spreads. And a custom blade with the folded steel upgrade is powerful indeed, and valuable. So for each punk zombie killed the players earn two of this powerful resource?

I know I'm being nitpicking about this, but just a little bit bigger of a weapon pool would have made me feel pretty good. Like someone earlier suggested, treat melee weapons in the same manner as ranged ones.

[alemon]

I disagree with everyone saying a katana is just a Calvary saber with the Folded steel upgrade as well. I'd just do a custom heavy blade, for the two handed.

[LordZombie]

Personally, if there is a weapon in malifaux that someone really wants (katana, relic hammer, gremlin banjo) then just use those stats. That is what I do.

[Omenbringer]

I disagree with everyone saying a katana is just a Calvary saber with the Folded steel upgrade as well. I'd just do a custom heavy blade, for the two handed.

I definitely agree. The two weapons are very different in employment.

 

Not sure I would make a Katana Heavy just for Two Handed, an Odaichi sure but a katana isn't that large and was often paired with a Wakizashi.

[wadesauce]

Obviously for right now, us fate masters will have to write in our own weapon spreads however best fits our games and needs, but i hope future books address these issues, and become more clear of what weapons have the heavy rule built in automatically.

I'm excited for the expansion books, me and my group really enjoy this game so far, and i think the expansion books will not only add more awesome fluff and content, but clarify some rules and fix a few oversights.

[Omenbringer]

I am hoping that the first expansion book will be a bit more complete and fill in a lot of these gaps.