Nix and the Red Joker Part Deux

[The Godlyness]

ok for reference

 

Weakness: If an enemy model within 3 would deal Severe damage, it deals Moderate damage instead.

 

People are saying that Nix with this Sweet abilty Drop the Red joker's Damage from Severe+weak to Moderate+weak. now i wish to debate the thought process of why they believe this.

 

here is the damage chart of what things do. now in the book its a chart. i cant make a chart my skills are poor.

 

Black joker  No Damage
1 to 5           Weak
6 to 10         Moderate
11 to 13       Severe
Red Joker   Severe + Weak

 

 

Now if i flip a 11-13 against Nix my Severe damage i would deal is reduced to moderate. seems pretty straight forward.

 

Now if i flip the Red joker i do Severe+Weak. which Clearly by itself is not Severe any more but a sum of 2 different Damage profiles.

 

now some things about the red joker and how it affects things since it is a Unique card and only one of in the deck

 

When a Red Joker is flipped it may always be chosen (except when a Black Joker is also present) regardless of any    to the Damage flip. The Red Joker always deals an amount of damage equal to the Severe plus the Weak damage. Damage that is staged down (such as extra models hit by blast damage) becomes Moderate.

 

Now to further extrapolate on the red joker

 

As well,the Red Joker's damage is stepped down to Moderate (not Severe) damage.

 

Now why would the Rulebook the object where we take guidance from tell us this line if the Red joker was not in its own separate category.

 

But wait godly how do you do blasts if you not really doing severe damage. Glad you asked.

 

the red joker takes the Severe damage Profile of the weapon and adds it to the Weak damage profile.

 

That means if the Severe damage had blasts in its profile then so does the red joker. so a 2/3 :blast /5 :blast   would deal 7 :blast

if it flipped the red joker. then since the Rulebook tells us to Stage down to moderate not severe and ignore any blasts from that profile the secondary targets would take 3damage each

 

So in Closing Severe damage is not  Severe+Weak.  to further clarify Severe =/= Severe+Weak.

 

Any questions?

[Uktena]

Didn't this come up in the beta forums and it was ruled Moderate + Weak?

[The Godlyness]

No it has never been ruled on.

People shouted their opinion and I believe it was closed.

[PraetorDragoon]

We did. Nothing substantial came out of it and it was closed in the end. I still think it is in the end moderate + weak, as I believe it downgrades the severe damage category to moderate. This is because I believe that you apply the effects of both weak and severe damage at the same time. 

 

This is mainly because certain Attacks have category based effects. For example, Molly's Revelation deals 2/3/4 damage, but applies Slow on moderate damage, and Paralyzed on severe damage. By your logic, flipping a Red Joker would deal 6 damage (2 + 4) but wouldn't apply Paralyzed. This is, as far as I believe, against the intent of the attack. This is why I believe the severe damage isn't a seperate category, and flipping a Red Joker would apply 6 damage and Paralyzed in this case.

 

Of course, I can see your logic. I just disagree with it, and continue it to run it in the way we've run it. Food for FAQ, that's for sure. 

[Uktena]

Sure. If severe plus weak was two instances of damage, armor would kick in twice. I see how it could be read a couple ways, but I think moderate plus weakk was what I recall

[PraetorDragoon]

I didn't ment to say it was two instances of damage, just that it counted both low and severe and took both effects together. So Severe triggered effects would still trigger.

[The Godlyness]

How do you get 2 instances of damage? Combining 2 profiles into one. That is what it does severe+weak=1 source not 2.

And on the effect thing. If severe damage also adds paralyze could it not also be written 2/3+slow/4+paralyze. So if you combine the severe+weak you get 6+paralyze.

But only the creator knows how it's supposed to truly be effected. But again that's why in the beginning of the post I wrote I wanted to know the thought process. Then diligently typed mine out.

[PraetorDragoon]

Clearly I can't type out my thoughts to save my life. Oh well. 

 

Attempt 2.

 

There are four categories of damage. None, Weak, Moderate, Severe.

 

When you flip a card, you take the affected category, and take it's effects. So if I flip a 1, I would take the effects of the weak category.

 

Red Joker however, takes the effects of two categories. Weak and Severe, and mashes them together. The end result becomes a single source.

 

Anything that affects any of these categories, also has on the Red Joker, as it isn't a seperate category. It just takes the effects of two existing categories.

 

As such, damage in the Severe category affected by Nix becomes Moderate, so the Red Joker becomes Moderate + Weak.

 

 

How do you get 2 instances of damage? Combining 2 profiles into one. That is what it does severe+weak=1 source not 2.

And on the effect thing. If severe damage also adds paralyze could it not also be written 2/3+slow/4+paralyze. So if you combine the severe+weak you get 6+paralyze.

But only the creator knows how it's supposed to truly be effected. But again that's why in the beginning of the post I wrote I wanted to know the thought process. Then diligently typed mine out.

 

Well, you said that Weak+Severe =/= Severe in your first post, so that would invalidate the 6+paralyze, according to your logic. Maybe I'm missing something here or not following your logic? 

[Uktena]

How do you get 2 instances of damage? Combining 2 profiles into one. That is what it does severe+weak=1 source not 2.

And on the effect thing. If severe damage also adds paralyze could it not also be written 2/3+slow/4+paralyze. So if you combine the severe+weak you get 6+paralyze.

But only the creator knows how it's supposed to truly be effected. But again that's why in the beginning of the post I wrote I wanted to know the thought process. Then diligently typed mine out.

Actually, I said if it was two sources armor would kick in twice -which it doesn't. I'm agreeing that it's a single source and while I speculate alongside you, I just mentioned what I remember from a couple test games months ago

[The Godlyness]

There are four categories of damage. None, Weak, Moderate, Severe.

Well, you said that Weak+Severe =/= Severe in your first post, so that would invalidate the 6+paralyze, according to your logic. Maybe I'm missing something here or not following your logic?

Where do you get only 4 categories? Why does the black joker get a place but the red is left out? I posted the chart that has all 5 categories.

I think my logic is sound. If you take the severe profile and all effects associated with it and add it to the weak profile and all effects associated with it does not equal severe (w/fx)

So severe+weak=/=severe by itself purely by adding the weak flip to it.

[PraetorDragoon]

I counted none as a seperate category. (How I loathe thee)

 

I believe that if you take severe and all effects associated with it then you also get the negative effects, such as from Nix. Which would reduce it to moderate. 

 

So if you counted the Red Joker as a seperate category, it wouldn't get additional effects, such as Rat's Blighted and Molly's paralyzed. 

 

Of course, I can see where you are coming from. I just disagree with it, as the logic doesn't count up to me.

[DocSchlock]

This thread should stop here, as nothing constructive is going to come from bleeding this stone.

There's two interpretations. Both can't be correct, and there's no way to determine the correctness of either within the rules as written.

If The Godlyness is right (Red Joker Damage is its own category of damage), Nix's ability does not work on the Red Joker, and the ~10 abilities that require Severe damage don't work on the Red Joker.

If PraetorDragoon is right (Red Joker damage is both the Severe Category and the Weak Category of damage), Nix's ability works against the Red Joker, and the ~10 abilities that require Severe work with the Red Joker.

This should probably get a FAQ in September.

[The Godlyness]

My logic is the the end result is no longer just severe. So when weakness says severe does moderate.the end result of a red joker flip is greater than severe. So it is not effected by weakness.

[The Godlyness]

Whoops posted wrong

Edited July 24, 2014 by The Godlyness

[PraetorDragoon]

This thread should stop here, as nothing constructive is going to come from bleeding this stone.

There's two interpretations. Both can't be correct, and there's no way to determine the correctness of either within the rules as written.

If The Godlyness is right (Red Joker Damage is its own category of damage), Nix's ability does not work on the Red Joker, and the ~10 abilities that require Severe damage don't work on the Red Joker.

If PraetorDragoon is right (Red Joker damage is both the Severe Category and the Weak Category of damage), Nix's ability works against the Red Joker, and the ~10 abilities that require Severe work with the Red Joker.

This should probably get a FAQ in September.

 

Agreed. This chesspool shouldn't be reopened. Let's close it while we're still civil.

[DocSchlock]

Lol, chesspool

[The Godlyness]

And here I was thinking we were being quite civil. Are you guys shooting veiled insults at me that I am not recognizing? Did I miss a backhanded compliment somewhere? But I do agree It does need a faq.

[Uktena]

/abandonthread.jpg

[Patzer]

I am in the RJ damage is not reduced to moderate plus weak. Just seem weird if it did, since you ad up both damage tracks and create a new one (which is not effected by Nix's aura). With that said, I would very much like it to reduce the damage to moderate+weak. FAQ is certainly needed.

[solkan]

Are there any "Moderate or better" abilities?

[DocSchlock]

Katanaka's Mark Trigger on the Tengu's Ml Attack is "After dealing moderate or severe damage".

Yan Lo's Spirit Barrage is "severe damage".

Molly's Revelation has "If moderate damage is dealt, the target gains Slow. If severe is dealt, the target gains Paralyzed."

Leve's Unnatural Wasting is "After flipping or cheating moderate or severe damage".

Malifaux Rat is "Increase the value of Blighted to +2 if Moderate damage is flipped or cheated and +3 if Severe is flipped or cheated".

Alp has "If the target suffers Moderate or Severe damage, it gains the Slow Condition."

McTavish & Bayou Gators: "After inflicting severe damage, kill the target unless it discards two cards."

Guild Lawyer: "If moderate damage is dealt, the target gains the Slow Condition. If severe damage is dealt, the target gains the Paralyzed Condition."

[Ausplosions]

Katanaka's Mark Trigger on the Tengu's Ml Attack is "After dealing moderate or severe damage".

Yan Lo's Spirit Barrage is "severe damage".

Molly's Revelation has "If moderate damage is dealt, the target gains Slow. If severe is dealt, the target gains Paralyzed."

Leve's Unnatural Wasting is "After flipping or cheating moderate or severe damage".

Malifaux Rat is "Increase the value of Blighted to +2 if Moderate damage is flipped or cheated and +3 if Severe is flipped or cheated".

Alp has "If the target suffers Moderate or Severe damage, it gains the Slow Condition."

McTavish & Bayou Gators: "After inflicting severe damage, kill the target unless it discards two cards."

Guild Lawyer: "If moderate damage is dealt, the target gains the Slow Condition. If severe damage is dealt, the target gains the Paralyzed Condition."

Yeah, which by The Godlyness' stance none of those would work on the RJ.

Which is wrong.

[The Godlyness]

Yeah, which by The Godlyness' stance none of those would work on the RJ.

Which is wrong.

Or right. But no one knows.

[Ausplosions]

It is fairly obvious that the rules nowhere state that the red joker is its own damage class.

So it isn't.

[hypoking]

This wouldn't be the first time in m2 that the rules as written worked against intent in some fairly glaring ways. Not sure if that has any bearing on Nix and rj.

[The Godlyness]

It is fairly obvious that the rules nowhere state that the red joker is its own damage class.

So it isn't.

Then how do we know how to do damage? What tells us what any damage flip does? Must be that chart that tells us. Let me use my fingers but I count 5 categories. Each with card numbers or joker. So saying it's not it's own category, is disregarding what is written in the rule book. I have rules backing my beliefs. Can you show me where you get your conclusion from?