the definition of killed.

[The Godlyness]

When a model is reduced to 0 wounds does it become killed right then and there. Or is it when the model is physically removed from the table does it count as killed?

Reasons

Collette's death defying trigger Has no verbiage similar to Hamelin or Levi.

Also

Obedient Wretch: The text of the Stink of Death Trigger is now: After damaging and determining whether the target was killed, if the target is still in play, summon a Malifaux Rat into base contact with the target.

This trigger sstill is wonky. If it's just reduced to 0 wounds and killed its still not removed Untill after the trigger is resolved in which no matter what you get a rat.

But if by determining if it's killed you mean removed from the game then it works but slightly confusing.

Stink of death: After Damaging if the target has 1 or more wounds remaining summon a malifaux rat into base contact.

Now this is much clearer but you might run into an odd scenario with Collette she uses death defying and is placed elsewhere and a rat pops up next to her. But besides that I don't see how it would adversely effect any other triggers.

[Lucidicide]

I don't have the rulebook handy, but I think it's that killed effectively works like a Condition you gain at a certain timing structure after being reduced to 0 Wounds but before being removed from play.

 

I don't really understand the language on the Wretch, though.

[Lupercal]

I think you are right that the trigger on the Wretch is talking about whether the model is removed from the game or killed, but I agree the wording is very confusing.

 

I dont know about the definition of killed and I also dont have a rulebook on me, so thats it from me.

[The Godlyness]

Killed is not a condition.

 

If the model is reduced to 0 or fewer Wounds it is immediately removed from the game as killed.

 

this is the only line i can find that defines killed. so is it being removed is the only time one counts as killed? but that cant work cause then Finish the job would not work. since the model would then have to be put back onto the table before you removed it.

 

Finish the Job: When this model is killed, it may place a Scheme Marker in base contact with itself before it is removed.

 

So if the act of being reduced to zero counts as killed then Colette is killed but still at wounds, and Stink of death still will always summon a rat.

 

Confusing i say.

[Lucidicide]

No one is saying Killed is a Condition. I said it functions like a Condition, which I say because there is a timing structure between hitting 0 Wounds and being removed from play (despite it saying "immediately"). During this time, the model is 'Killed' but still in play. This is the time that things like Finish the Job happen.

 

Someone like Colette is reduced to 0 Wounds (effectively being 'Killed') but is capable of removing that state before the Killed effect (being removed from play) processes.

 

There is a timing in the game where something is at 0 Wounds and Killed but still on the table.

 

I still don't know about the Wretch, though.

[The Godlyness]

Why does Collette healing remove the killed (state/condition) when a similar ability (very similar) Hamlin explicitly states that it does. When hers does not.

See my point.

We also have Collodi verbiage which functions weirdly.

Collodi: The text on the My Bidding Trigger was changed to: After dealing damage to target non-Leader, if the target was not killed, the target performs a (1) Action chosen and controlled by this model's controller. This Action may not declare Triggers.

Now this trigger could be whole new trigger that does its own thing. It says after dealing damage to a non leader. When an after damaging trigger would say. After Damaging target non-leader.... So in this case maybe it checks to see if the model is still in play. Or if it's just waiting to die. But it's timing is vague at best.

So again is killed being reduced to zero. Being at 0 or physically being removed from the game.

[Lucidicide]

Yes, and I did originally. I don't have answers for you, but rather was trying to add my understanding of it in case it added anything.

 

I'd speculate that Hamelin's was added for clarity, but Colette didn't have the room for similar. But that's just a guess.

[mythicFOX]

The first post is fairly confusing and It took me a few minutes to understand what you were getting at.  As I understand it the real question you're asking is;

 

Given after damaging triggers are resolved before models which would be killed are removed from play, how does the following trigger work?

 

 Stink of Death: After damaging, if the target is still in play, summon a Malifaux Rat into base contact with the target.

 

Am I right?

[The Godlyness]

I posted the errata to that trigger. Located in the faq last page.

But no my main question still is what is the definition of killed. When is it applied.

Depending on the answer the new trigger still does not function the way it should.

And then there is Collette and Collodi.

[Tuttleboy]

Killed is defined in the rules. What happens to a mini in response to it being killed could use a bit of clarification for some of the triggers out there.

[The Godlyness]

Can you post it's definition I can't find it.

[Tuttleboy]

Here you go.

 

 

If the model is reduced to 0 or fewer Wounds it is immediately removed from the game as killed.

[mythicFOX]

That's on page 51 of the small book and page 46 of the large for those reading along at home.

 

I get the apparent ambiguity in the way Stink of Death interacts with the 'after damaging' rules. That's a good question.

 

As for the rest I'm struggling to get from this conversation if anyone is genuinely confused about how these rules should be played on the table?

 

The rest of the areas of discussion seems to me to be an exercise in looking at minor variations in the phrasing and trying to extrapolate.

 

Unless I'm missing something.

[The Godlyness]

So if I reduce Collette to 0 wounds I would score assassinate since she is killed. Even if she heals from her trigger. Which does not have the verbiage not killed in it.

Also the newly erratad obedient wretch's trigger still does not function as we know it should.

[The Godlyness]

It's not a question of how it "should" be played. Its how they do play as currently worded.

[mythicFOX]

Looking specifically at your Colette concerns.

It's been covered many times that differences in the exact phrasing of the rules doesn't mean they perform differently. You're trying to use a variation from the wording used in similar abilities to justify an unusual interpretation.

It's clear that this trigger replaces the normal result of being reduced to 0 wounds with the effect of the trigger. The only way the ability makes any logical sense is if it does that. If it doesn't prevent her from being killed what is it for?

 

For reference:

Df/Wp (  ) Death Defying: When this model is reduced to 0 Wounds, it may be placed in base contact with target friendly model with a cost of 5 or more within 8". Sacrifice the target and then heal an amount of damage equal to the target's remaining Wounds plus one.

[The Godlyness]

But the definition of killed Which was posted is when a model is reduced to 0 wounds. Again I know how it should work. I am not that obtuse. But if some one claimed what I posted above they are technically right. And have the rules backing them.

So people agree the obedient trigger needs a rework.

Does Collodi's.

Collodi: The text on the My Bidding Trigger was changed to: After dealing damage to target non-Leader, if the target was not killed, the target performs a (1) Action chosen and controlled by this model's controller. This Action may not declare Triggers.

Which if killed is the instant you hit 0. Then it works fine. But the see Collette above.

Again what is killed. Is it being at 0 wounds after resolving all effects in which case you are then removed. But then collodi's trigger would not function since you can't determine if it's killed till after.

If it's the instant you hit 0 then Collette's trigger has issues.

But either way the OB needs recording.

[Bengt]

Isn't it simply that Colette's trigger replaces the normal rules for hitting 0 wounds with the text of her trigger? I mean cards override the book rules if there is a conflict, i.e. how to deal with Colette having 0 wounds.

 

Also, per P32, Defender's trigger is resolved before the Attacker's. So you would determine if Colette has a suitable patsy in range or if she is removed before you look at Collodi's trigger (if My Bidding worked on Colette in the first place that is).

[The Godlyness]

I would point you to Hamelin who gas wording to say he is not killed. As does Levi.

For her trigger to come into effect she has to be at 0 wounds. Which is killed. Her trigger does not prevent this. It only heals her after she is killed.

[Lucidicide]

I really think the wording of saying they're not killed is just to make it absolutely clear (essentially extra language). This does not mean it is not the case in other places.

 

If you are at 0 Wounds, you are Killed. If for some reason you get above 0 Wounds before being removed from play, you lose Killed. The timing structure of taking damage and triggers means Colette gets her trigger before she'd be removed from play, and therefore loses Killed before the removed from play process.

 

I think Killed could be better worded to: If the model is reduced to 0 or fewer Wounds it is Killed and removed from the game after effects resolve. If a model heals Wounds before it is removed from play, it is no longer Killed.

 

Then, if necessary (which I don't think it is), Hamelin and Leve could be changed to remove the language that says they're not killed. Then they'd work the exact same as Colette.

[Lucidicide]

As an additional note, that would mean that Collodi's trigger would work on Colette after her trigger saved her (assuming Colette was a non-Leader, that is), since she was not killed by the time his trigger processes (even though she had been previously). 

[hypoking]

Non-master, but yeah timing would work out.

[The Godlyness]

If you are at 0 Wounds, you are Killed. If for some reason you get above 0 Wounds before being removed from play, you lose Killed. The timing structure of taking damage and triggers means Colette gets her trigger before she'd be removed from play, and therefore loses Killed before the removed from play process..

Sadly this is not supported by the rules as written.

Also I have not even talked about the other version of killed.

Disembowel: After damaging, kill the target unless it discards two cards or two Soulstones. Or any other of the instant kill triggers (decapitation assassinate swallow whole etc)

How is kill defined? Do we lower the model to zero wounds then remove it. Or do you just remove the model.

Mind you Collette's trigger death defying does not stop insta-kill triggers even if she gets reduced to 0 wounds in the process. She would still be killed Even if she was not at 0 wounds.

So we have being killed by triggers and being killed by being reduced to 0 wounds.

So again I ask what is kill(ed) defined as.

[Justin]

Mind you Collette's trigger death defying does not stop insta-kill triggers even if she gets reduced to 0 wounds in the process. She would still be killed Even if she was not at 0 wounds.

So we have being killed by triggers and being killed by being reduced to 0 wounds.

 

 

Not making any rulings here, merely trying to get to where you're going.

 

Colette's trigger never even uses the word "killed." So, while this statement is very much correct, I'm not really sure how relevant it is. Colette can't stop instant kill triggers.

 

Where, the other abilities you point to on Hamelin for example, stop killed entirely and so would stop instant kill triggers. Hence the different wording.

 

Again, I feel comfortable stating this, as it's on the cards in black and white.

 

I don't know, there seems to be a lot of bending over backwards in this thread to make the rules NOT work. Which does not incline me to making an entry in the FAQ. Generally, I want to make an entry in the FAQ when people need to bend over backwards so the rules DO work. I hope this doesn't come off as rude, you are actually usually very helpful in the rules forums and I very much appreciate your contributions. I just think this may be a case of over thinking things. I mean, now, could things be more clear? Absolutely. Is stink of death poorly worded? Yeah. Do we need to completely redefine killed? ...I'm not thinking so.

[The Godlyness]

Just making sure people understand that part. That if her trigger ever did get not killed put in it, it would effect these triggers but only if she was reduced to 0 wounds by the attack to actually trigger her trigger.

Also if it was said that insta-kill triggers do reduce the models to 0 to remove them then her trigger would come into play again.

Which also for instance if something was burning and within range of reincarnation and was decapitated Sonnia could get a stalker.

But as my understanding at the moment a burning model that is decapitated has not met the requirements for reincarnation (reduced to 0 wounds) to spawn a stalker. (Unless of course the damage did reduce to 0 ofc)

[Justin]

Edited last post. ^