Wave 1 schemers for Guild?

[Shephammer]

I'd like to get a discussion started about the best ways to (1) interact with Guild.  I'm rather new to Malifaux, but I'm a seasoned competitive tabletop gamer.  I've taken a real interest in Malifaux, but I'm finding that I don't have that scenario instinct that I know I need to win consistently.  I thought I'd just share where my head is at, and perhaps you other Guild players could steer me in the right direction.

 

I'd like to limit the discussion to Wave 1 models.  It's all that I have experience with.  I think it might be a fine place to start as well, and selfishly, I don't want to fall in love with any wave 2 models, because I am planning to be plastic only.

 

It seems that minions get mentioned as being the best schemers.  I can see the advantage.  The soulstone cost per AP ratio is very favorable, meaning you are trading a lower magnitude action for an (1) interact.  Another advantage is that it is more difficult to engage multiple models to stop any scheming that doesn't target enemy models.  Let's start here.

 

death marshal - Finish the job jumps right off of the card.  An unrestricted scheme marker placement upon death is good for 7 out of 19 schemes.  When I was counting those up, I was actually surprised at how few schemes use scheme markers.  A built-in boon to 37% of the schemes available is nothing to discount, but otherwise it is going to be the support you give to the death marshal that gives him the extra movement or AP needed to score VP.  At 3 stones per AP, that isn't spectacular.

 

witchling stalker - There isn't anything on this card that specifically mentions interacts.  The Wk is also lower than average, which doesn't translate to any real advantages in scheming.  But the stones per AP is now 2.5.

 

guild guard - Investigate seems like it could be at least as advantageous as finish the job.  Not needing to spend an AP to walk could let you use 1 ap to remove the scheme marker you just based up, and then spend your second AP to place one of your own.  Scheme markers aren't used for every scheme as mentioned earlier, but it seems that when they are in play, friendly and enemy scheme markers want to be in the same places.  Line in the sand, power ritual, and protect territory.  Guild card have an excellent 2 stones per AP cost as well.

 

guild austringer - At first glance we are right back to the problem with death marshals, 3 stones per AP, and finish the job only being relevant for a fraction of the schemes.  But deliver orders appears to be a very big deal.  Trading 2 AP for a 1 AP interact and a very small push looked counter-productive to me at first.  But after playing a handful of games, being engaged was one of the primary barriers to me placing scheme markers.  The push could disengage a model, which could be the austringer himself, and then place a scheme marker.  Even better, it just allows for an interact.  This could remove a scheme marker or it could distract or cursed object an enemy model.  You could even use it for a last chance cursed object removal.  Even at 6 stones, this minion seems like the best of the bunch.

 

For Guild enforcers, henchmen, and masters, I have found it harder to scheme.  It is particularly difficult for me to trade their higher quality actions for interacts.  I don't think it would be efficient to list each one here and talk about their scheme potential, but I've got a couple specific thoughts...

 

plant evidence - we get access to a very cheap and nearly unrestricted upgrade that helps us in the scheming department.  Because upgrades are not secret, your opponent knows that your model has it.  Unless they can bury or sacrifice the model, a scheme marker WILL be put down.  Unfortunately, the interact at the end of the game specifies that you can only use it to place a scheme marker, so no using it to distract or remove an enemy marker.  I think this upgrade could be useful for enforcer-heavy crews, such as Perdita's.

 

obey - My first games were with the Latigo Posse box set, and my first steps to improvement were to understand that taking a shot with Perdita is not always better than using obey to either set up a scheme play for an unactivated model, or to have a model like Fransisco that just cleared himself off with a flurry place a scheme marker.

 

with me!/stand for judgement/enfrentate a mi!/where'd he go?/shackled/cover me - Pushes are a real godsend for scheming in Guild.  It doesn't seem like we have the best pushes across factions, but I'm learning that they can be the difference, and really one of the only ways to set up deliver a message or stake a claim.

 

spotter - I cooled on Nino almost right away.  From the shadows is a very skill intensive ability, and I wasn't doing it right.  I also dismissed spotter out of hand.  He still doesn't come into my crews for his damage potential alone, but when the schemes are revealed and there are a couple options that target my models, like distract, cursed object, deliver a message and also not technically targeting, but spring the trap and plant explosives, I've found it worth keeping him alive even at the expense of his offense just to shut down so many different schemes.

 

I would love to hear from any of you about anything you think I've missed, or anything that you've picked up in your games that makes scheming easier.  Your favorite model for the job, your favorite combination, etc.

 

Thanks.

[akaean]

I don't think its truly fair to leave out the Wave Two models.  They are later in the release schedule, but to be fair, many of the wave 1 models are still Metal.  Like the Peacekeeper, Austringers, etc.  while models like the Guild Guard and Executioner are only just being released.    You also mention being a seasoned competitive gamer, and in a game like Malifaux, effectively cutting your model pool in half will remove a ton of tactical flexibility from your crew.  Now, you won't notice this really on a casual level, but avoiding certain models like the Witchling Handler in Sonnia, Latigo Pistoleros for Ortegas, and the Brutal Effigy for any of Guilds damage masters, you're really looking to set yourself on the back foot in a tournament setting from the word go.   So I'll go through some of the Wave 1 stuff first,  but I think you are doing yourself a disservice competitively by not looking at any of the Wave 2 stuff.  

 

Now, the top 2 scheme masters for the Guild are Lucius and McMourning.  Since you are more interested in Wave 1, I'll talk about Doug first.  

Douglas McMourning is an epic scheme master for several reasons

1) Evidence Tampering causes all enemy scheme markers within 4 inches of him to become friendly scheme markers instead at the end of the game.  This can ruin somebodies line in the sand, or breakthrough.

2) Injection.  One of McMourning's 0 actions, this one lets you push a model 8 inches and place a scheme marker.   Since the model is "placing" the scheme marker, and not making an interact action... it makes schemes like plant explosives trivially easy.  And Ninos spotter? Doesn't work.  Placing a scheme marker =/= interact 

3)  If you want more pushes, you can take Unknowable Pain, which gives all your models the ability to push towards enemies who damaged them.  Out of activation movement makes certain schemes, like Deliver a Message, Cursed Object, and others far more manageable to accomplish.

And Douglas is no slouch in close combat either.

 

 

Another thing I noticed in your post is that you are looking a lot at "cost per interact"  I don't think this is the best way to look at it.  Guild Guard might be some of the cheapest interacts you can get in guild, but if they can't get into position in time, or don't have a way to plant the explosives in a key spot, they are making absolutely worthless interacts.  The game is about scoring victory points, and sometimes you'll be interacting with a Henchmen or even your Master.   Most plans don't survive contact with the enemy, and being able to adapt and not being afraid to change a model's role mid game.

 

Take a look at the Peacekeeper.  He's 11ss of face beating.  I've seen a Peacekeeper tear through an entire crew on his own.  But the best use of him isn't always doing what he does best.  His 0 action Advanced Protocol is actually very good.  Your opponent guarding markers for Line in the Sand or Protect Territory.  Advanced Protocol can clear those markers, in a huge circle, regardless of whether the Peacekeeper is engaged or not.  A well placed Advanced Protocol can win you the game, more than any amount of killing the Peacekeeper could have done.

 

Speaking of beatstick enforcers, the Executioner is a good choice in schemepool heavy games because he can turn enemy scheme markers into extra attacks and walks.  Which is great, because it helps the Executioner do what he does best, and gets rid of enemy scheme markers at the same time.  Awesome.

 

Now, I know that you don't want to hear about Wave 2, but competitively I think you are severely limiting your options.

The best guild dedicated scheme runners are in Wave 2

Watcher Walk 6, Flight, 4ss.  These guys are fast, and they are great for placing scheme markers where they are needed.  The best part is that the Wave 2 Guild Masters can juice them up and make them even faster / better.  Hoffman can give them Nimble or lower the cost of interact markers on them, which makes them blindingly fast, and some of the most reliable models for Deliver a Message or Power Ritual in the entire game.  McCabe can give them reactivate, and toss them the badge of speed to give them Nimble.  Just make sure you keep the Watcher within 10 inches of McCabe unless you don't mind losing the upgrade.  and Lucius can order them to make additional activations.

Guild Houds 3 ss models, when there are at least 2 together (or with McCabe's totem) they become significant and can take interactions.  One of the cheapest objective runners in the entire game.  And it helps that they are fast as well.

 

I'll run through some of the interact heavy strats and schemes and talk about how I typically handle them.

- A Line in the Sand:  Lucius is a great master for this.  He has a lot of scheme marker generation, and gets free interacts as a trigger off of his Issue Command.  The Guard Sergeant has a 0 action which can move a scheme marker to a new location.  Lucius also has an ability to let minions near him make interact actions while engaged, allowing you to get precious scheme markers down in contested areas

- Distract / cursed object:  Lucius again is excellent at this.  He gets lots of extra activations from his minions to move them into position to interact and still get some swings in.  Austringers are also worth mentioning as they can deliver orders to push a model into range.  Generally I try to district my enemies with my sturdier pieces, keep your distracted enemies engaged, and they usually can't shurg the condition.   Guild Guard in Pairs are great for this, df6,  to disengaging strikes, and some armor.

- Plant Explosives: Douglas McMourning is outstanding at Plant Explosives due to the big push and placing a scheme marker.  Although Lucius is right behind him.  Lucius has a trigger on his hidden sniper to place a scheme marker near enemies, he can use his what lackeys are for to get one there.  Also worth mentioning the Guard Sergeant, who can move a scheme marker placed away from the enemy into position for maximum points for plant explosives!

- Deliver a Message:  Hoffman or Lucas upgraded Watchers make this trivial.  Lucius can order models to move next to the opposing master out of their activation leaving them free to deliver the message when their turn roles around.  Perdita can make use of Obey. 

- Spring the Trap:  Lucius is really the only Guild master who can hope to generate enough scheme markers near an enemy leader to score on this reliably.  Although Doug's injection and the Guild Sergeants ability to move a scheme marker help a lot.

- Power Ritual:  Watchers again.  Have you ever seen a watcher move 18 inches?  Or with programmed Directive move 12 and (0) action down a scheme marker.  Its a beautiful thing.  My Watchers have probably won more games for me than any other model in the game.

- Breakthrough:  I tend to like Death Marshals for this, they're fairly fast, unimpeded lets them take more difficult routs to the opponents deployment zone, and they can box stuff that gets in their way.  But... er... Watchers.

 

Anyway.  Sorry for the unorganized rambling.  Those are some of my impressions of Guild Scheming.  And you really should look at wave 2.  Watchers are far and away one of the best objective runners in the entire game, and have access to some really amazing buffing to make them just off the hook.

[Shephammer]

Thanks Akaean!  This is exactly what I am looking for.

 

I understand completely about the wave 2 stuff.  When it comes time for me to compete, and with only a handful of games under my belt, that is some months off, I won't be expecting victory with self-imposed restrictions.  I'm just hoping that the models will come out at about the pace of my expansion into this game.  It's just easier for me to mentally process at wave 1.  But hearing about wave 2 stuff is great too.  I just don't own any yet, and I don't plan to own any in the near future.

 

I've been on the receiving end of rezzer mcMourning a few times.  He really is a scenario and scheming beast!  And I can't wait to reconnoiter with Lucius!

 

How in the heck did I forget about the peacekeeper and the executioner?  Both of them have great abilities that rip apart enemy schemes and the models that attempted to place them.  Thanks for bringing them up.

 

I'm definitely excited about watchers and guild hounds, particularly watchers with Hoffman.  What great scheme running they can do with a (0) interact!

 

Thanks again for the reply.

[Justin]

Guild Guard. It's all about the Guild Guard.

 

Most all factions have a 4 ss model designed to drop markers, and there's yours.

 

Investigate helps with mobility, their durability is good for their cost allowing them to survive to do the job, their movement is decent, and they're cheap enough to run around interacting. 

[EntrepeNinja]

You heard the man. Wave one, that's exactly my thoughts.

 

Same with Doug in guild as top schemer.

[dgraz]

Another thing I noticed in your post is that you are looking a lot at "cost per interact"  I don't think this is the best way to look at it.  Guild Guard might be some of the cheapest interacts you can get in guild, but if they can't get into position in time, or don't have a way to plant the explosives in a key spot, they are making absolutely worthless interacts.  The game is about scoring victory points, and sometimes you'll be interacting with a Henchmen or even your Master.   Most plans don't survive contact with the enemy, and being able to adapt and not being afraid to change a model's role mid game.

 

This is an excellent point. Sometimes you're master or other expensive model is the best choice for Interacting.....the Master with 3 AP.....or a big model with an extra movement ability like Leap (I use my Cerberus for it all the time........Delivered the Message to Misaki....can you say self-sacrifice....but scored 3 VP).

Other times you will throw your master into the thick of it totally expecting to lose them just to keep attention off of the 4ss model that's about to score you the last Plant Evidence point to win you the game......the game does get that close in points. Just like in chess, a good player won't hesitate to put his queen in danger if a knight can check-mate the enemy king.

 

So thinking about the relative power/ability of models is good, but it all depends on the circumstances at the time.

[DeleteAccount]

 

So thinking about the relative power/ability of models is good, but it all depends on the circumstances at the time.

Pretty much this, Perdita for example is a goddess of death, but when push comes to shove, she is a very very good scheme doer because of her free push at the start of her activation. Never obsess about the main role of a model, just have it do what needs to be done at a given time.

[Tuttleboy]

I gotta give the 2 thumbs up to Watchers. Even more so when they are in Hoffman's crew. Who doesn't like the Field Mechanic upgrade's Update Hardware action giving 1 Watcher Programmed Directive to reduce the cost of all interactions by one and then casting it again when you make sure to get the trigger to put Hydraulics for an additional Walk on the other Watcher?  Anytime I'm playing Hoff in a scheme heavy pool its the 2nd thing I do on turn 1, right after I 0 for Shakedown on the Watcher that will be getting Hydraulics.

[akaean]

Sometimes late at night I get carried away.

 

Anyway, I just wanted to talk a bit more about McMourning. He brings Nurses into the Guild.  Take your Meds can be awesome on your own models.  Like throwing Uppers on a model you want to move into position for a scheme marker.

 

They also have a lot of other nifty tricks.  Like putting Hallucinogens on an Executioner, and then pushing him into base contact with some enemies with McMourning.   You can cast precise on him while you're at it.  If you have some nice Rams in your hand, with Critical Strike you can be looking at a 7/8/9 damage spread which ignores hard to wound and armour what fun!  You can also heal your guys, then remove the Paralyze with a Witchling Stalker.

[daemonkin]

And for Wave 2 the sergeant can move scheme markers around for a (0) AP. Quite handy. Hounds can also charge for (1)AP when an enemy is near a scheme marker.

 

D.

[4thstringer]

Warning: Wave two heavy analysis because I play more wave 2 than wave 1.

 

Just want to point out that Lucius (Wave two)   is a scheme guy through and through.  He can use his 3 ap to get around, while using his commanding presence to get his friendly models to take extra actions as well.  Alternatively, with a mask he can use Issue command to have someone action and interact (great for distract, Ive double distracted in a turn with this one) or that what lackeys are for, which can help get a key piece in a key position while also dropping a scheme marker.

 

I also like Lawyers and Guild Sarges as runners (who are also wave 2).  Lawyers have decent speed, defensive stats and a resistance to Lucius causing them horror duels, as well as finish the job.  Guild Sargent have their ability to move scheme markers with their 0 actions, which can be extremely useful for spring the trap, plant explosives, line in the sand, and protect territory.

 

Other people have talked about watchers, guild guard and hounds, so I will not rediscuss here.

 

Has anyone used Wastrels for this?  What did you think?

[EntrepeNinja]

@Akaean you picking up the guild mcmourning slack I left when I moved? First Hoffman, mow Doug? :3

 

Yeah, McMourning... he is a schemer.... With his guild upgrade, he's got two actions that allow for out of activation scheming.

 

Akaean mentioned injection, but he's also got 'On the Order of the Governor General's Secretary... I love saying that...' which allows a model to take a 1 interact. So a model can be told to take an interact for 1, then 0 inject to push and place a scheme marker. Great for protect territory, as they can be clerk than 4", and easily guarded with one model.

 

ENinja

[akaean]

Looks that way. I picked up his box set today, and I'm planning on starting him up during Joe's escalation league this July.

This'll put Sonnia on hold, and bring me up to Justice, Lucius, Hoffman, and Doug. Fun times.