New player - A couple of (probably) obvious questions

[NickE]

Hey guys.

I've had a search through the book and the forums but can't seem to find an explanation.

I get the difference between a pulse and an aura, but.....

Certain abilities/actions will describe a range and use the symbol for either along with the abilities' range

Example:

Night terrors' "Night falls" action....... "Enemy models within aura 8 suffer......."

Dead Riders "Claim Souls" action..... "Enemy models within pulse 3 must make....."

Is the distance measured differently or something?

Also, when a model has the opportunity to make an out of sequence action, does that contribute to the total of APs available to that model this turn?

Example:

Rogue Necromancys'' "Smell Fear" Ability........"When an enemy model within 6" loses a Wp duel this model may make a (1) Ml attack. I'm guessing that if Rogue Necromancy had already activated and used both APs that turn, it wouldn't be able to use that ability?

Thanks guys. Just want to make sure I've got it straight before I start pushing this fantastic game at my club.

Cheers!

Nick

[bertmac]

Auras unless otherwise stated affect the originator along with anything in range pulse just affect things in range other than the originator.

 

Auras will usually move with the model whereas pulses have instant effect.

[J_D]

Auras will usually move with the model whereas pulses have instant effect.

This is how I remember it (and teach people). An aura effeect is always on, which means someone is affected as soon as they move in to that zone around the character. A pulse is just an instant effect,that only applies when it has been cast and stops once its effeects have been resolved.

[Fenton Crack]

Auras also only go out in a "cylinder" AoE as tall as the emitting model, where pulses go out in a "sphere" potentially affecting models above or below their height.  

[Scorpion0x17]

Auras also only go out in a "cylinder" AoE as tall as the emitting model, where pulses go out in a "sphere" potentially affecting models above or below their height.

Incorrect.

Both have the same ht as the model unless otherwise specified.

[The Godlyness]

On the second part of your question no. Smell fear would not take the models ap away. Nor does obey or similar effects. Or pounce.

[Fenton Crack]

Incorrect.

Both have the same ht as the model unless otherwise specified.

 

Oops, quite right, page 51.  I guess the only spherical effects that I can actually think of are those that are not pulses or auras are things like Johan's Open Revolt, which simply give a measurement  from the model, and not the Aura or Pulse icon.

[Scorpion0x17]

I don't think those are spherical either.

On page 41 of the main rule book, when discussing Vantage Points, it says:

"Range [is] checked in the normal top down manner".

[Fenton Crack]

I don't think those are spherical either.

On page 41 of the main rule book, when discussing Vantage Points, it says:

"Range [is] checked in the normal top down manner".

I agree that top down is how you generally determine range, but not necessarily that it would preclude the effect on a model higher than the "emanating" model. Auras and pulses have the restriction built into them by their respective definitions, and then into certain effects by the fact the devs made the ability a pulse or aura, but if they have made the conscious decision to make a ranged effect not either of those, I do not think the limitation should necessarily come along with it.

I recall a thread debating both the enforcement and the intent of the "non-pulse or aura effects", and I think Johan's Open are lot specifically, but do not recall whether there was any definitive consensus. I'll look around for it, but it was likely during the beta and those threads are no longer available.

[Ausplosions]

To your second question.

No, they do not need to have AP to take those kind of actions. That would be ridiculous.

[Durza]

Remember models generate AP when they activate and lose it at the end of their activation, so abilities that let you take actions outside of a models activation don't use AP.

[Kadeton]

Neither do abilities that let a model take extra actions during its own activation.

[Scorpion0x17]

I agree that top down is how you generally determine range, but not necessarily that it would preclude the effect on a model higher than the "emanating" model. Auras and pulses have the restriction built into them by their respective definitions, and then into certain effects by the fact the devs made the ability a pulse or aura, but if they have made the conscious decision to make a ranged effect not either of those, I do not think the limitation should necessarily come along with it.

I'm not saying that I think they're limited height, like auras and pulses, just that I think they're cylindrical, rather than spherical.

[Fenton Crack]

I'm not saying that I think they're limited height, like auras and pulses, just that I think they're cylindrical, rather than spherical.

Hmmm, how are you calculating the "cylinder" AoE then? If it's 4" range effect, for example, is it an AoE cylinder 8" plus base size in diameter, and model Ht plus 4" vertically up from the base, and 4" down from the base? Or just 8" tall cylinder (with the base as the center point) and 4" plus base size diameter?

Since the only times a non- horizontal measurement will be of concern is when the model to be affected is higher or lower then the emanating model, and unless the difference is just an inch, vantage point rules should kick in if a model is 2" or higher. With Vantage Point, measurements are taken from the bases at the actual distance rather "top down".

If one is then measuring base to base at the actual angle rather than top down, I feel the AoE will end up being quite spherical. It would not be a perfect sphere by any means, as measurements are not taken from the center of the base, but instead from the point of the base closest to the model one is measuring to.

That is to say, I do t think it should be calculated any different than other measurements in the game that are without other specific limits or modifiers: ie Leap, where you would place the model anywhere within the max range, measuring from the base's edge, (and if going vertical in the movement, would abandon "top down" measurement) so it creates a almost spherical area.

I could of course be wrong, but I think simply measuring radially out from the base edges the easiest way to measure it, if nothing else, and seems to be the reading of the rules as they currently stand.

[Scorpion0x17]

Hmmm, how are you calculating the "cylinder" AoE then? If it's 4" range effect, for example, is it an AoE cylinder 8" plus base size in diameter, and model Ht plus 4" vertically up from the base, and 4" down from the base? Or just 8" tall cylinder (with the base as the center point) and 4" plus base size diameter?

Since the only times a non- horizontal measurement will be of concern is when the model to be affected is higher or lower then the emanating model, and unless the difference is just an inch, vantage point rules should kick in if a model is 2" or higher. With Vantage Point, measurements are taken from the bases at the actual distance rather "top down".

If one is then measuring base to base at the actual angle rather than top down, I feel the AoE will end up being quite spherical. It would not be a perfect sphere by any means, as measurements are not taken from the center of the base, but instead from the point of the base closest to the model one is measuring to.

That is to say, I do t think it should be calculated any different than other measurements in the game that are without other specific limits or modifiers: ie Leap, where you would place the model anywhere within the max range, measuring from the base's edge, (and if going vertical in the movement, would abandon "top down" measurement) so it creates a almost spherical area.

I could of course be wrong, but I think simply measuring radially out from the base edges the easiest way to measure it, if nothing else, and seems to be the reading of the rules as they currently stand.

I'll repeat what I posted previously:

 

On page 41 of the main rule book, when discussing Vantage Points, it says:

"Range [is] checked in the normal top down manner".

 

So, whether the models are at a different height or not, range is always measured top-down.

 

At least that's how I read the rules.

[NickE]

Phew, thanks guys.

So in essence, the actual "lateral" range to the target for aura and pulse would be the same?

Thanks for the help. Amazing game. I'm glad that 7thEd 40k was (IMHO) a bit poo, as it was the push I needed to try this!

[Fenton Crack]

I'll repeat what I posted previously:

 

On page 41 of the main rule book, when discussing Vantage Points, it says:

"Range [is] checked in the normal top down manner".

 

So, whether the models are at a different height or not, range is always measured top-down.

 

At least that's how I read the rules.

I see where you are coming from, I do. There was clarification in the FAQ regarding measuring distances vertically, although not having it or the Rulebook in front of me, perhaps it's intent was truly just to clarify that you need to measure vertically for movement alone, and not AoE or other measurements.

It could be the intent that the AoE is supposed to be a cylinder infinitely tall.

However, if that is the case, it seems you could get potentially the same inequity that the measuring the actual vertical was meant to avoid.

If a model cannot fly up a Ht 12 piece of terrain using 2" of movement if it's standing an inch away from its base (which the FAQ rules out), it would seem equally odd that Johan could be healing models a couple inches from the base of the same tower while he is 12" up on the top.

Then again, games are abstractions, and if there is one element that seems to test this the most often in Malifaux, it's Vantage Point and playing the game with heavily vertical terrain.

[Scorpion0x17]

I see where you are coming from, I do. There was clarification in the FAQ regarding measuring distances vertically, although not having it or the Rulebook in front of me, perhaps it's intent was truly just to clarify that you need to measure vertically for movement alone, and not AoE or other measurements.

It could be the intent that the AoE is supposed to be a cylinder infinitely tall.

However, if that is the case, it seems you could get potentially the same inequity that the measuring the actual vertical was meant to avoid.

If a model cannot fly up a Ht 12 piece of terrain using 2" of movement if it's standing an inch away from its base (which the FAQ rules out), it would seem equally odd that Johan could be healing models a couple inches from the base of the same tower while he is 12" up on the top.

Then again, games are abstractions, and if there is one element that seems to test this the most often in Malifaux, it's Vantage Point and playing the game with heavily vertical terrain.

 

Seems to be talking specifically about movement to me:

 

 

Q: A model with the Incorporeal Ability ignores terrain when it moves. If it is on the ground floor of a building which is 10” tall, can it end its move on top of the building, even if its Wk stat is less than 10, since it ignores the building while moving? Same question for a model with Flight in regards to vertical terrain.  

 

A: No. Although measurements in Malifaux are generally made from a top down view, vertical distances are measured while moving a model (see pg. 42 of the rulebook, Movement & Terrain). If the model with Incorporeal ends its move on top of the 10” tall building, it would have moved 10” and, unless it has a Wk of 10 or greater, this is not a legal move. However, if the Incorporeal model has a sufficient Wk stat to complete the move, it would be able to end the move on top of the terrain, ignoring the usual rules for climbing, etc. Flight works similarly, except in the case of Enclosed terrain (see Enclosed terrain, rulebook pg. 60).

 

[Fenton Crack]

Seems to be talking specifically about movement to me:

 

If this is truly the intent that it only apply to movement, and perhaps it is, then it certainly makes those AoE that are not pulses or auras significantly much more powerful that don't need to "target" or otherwise have LOS:

 

Aside from Johan healing from upon high, and buffing MS&U models at the same time, he could potentially do so with impunity (if he is inside said tower with total cover).

 

it also potentially makes even better such abilities Seamus' Back Alley (as if "placing" continues to be differentiated from moving as it is elsewhere in the rules), he could be teleporting around to nigh un-attackable heights quite easily.

 

This would seemingly also allow Union Miners to throw scheme markers on the roofs of unclimbable tall buildings they are simply standing next to (since there is no LOS requirement like Lucius's scheme marker toss), making the markers safe from almost all, except those without flight or incorporeal or a teleport.

 

Leveticus can more easily summon Waifs out of immediate danger on top of the proverbial 10" tower (as long as she is summoned within 2" of the edge) several inches away, with a 6 stone model patrolling its base to maintain the waif as a viable node.

 

Etc.

 

 

 

Certainly food for thought, and perhaps the way to avoid NPE's if this is the rule, is to limit the height of terrain by agreement during  terrain placement  so the effects are less "extreme," otherwise I could see a high potential for abuse.

[Scorpion0x17]

Hmm, yeah, I see what you mean, and I'm now starting to come round to your point of view...

Hopefully it'll get FAQ'd at some point.

[Tuttleboy]

Here's a discussion we had a while back on whether or not auras and pulses only extend upwards from the base of the model.  Long story short is that consensus says only up, but most didn't like that. Especially if you're a Dreamer player.

 

 

http://wyrd-games.net/community/topic/100751-do-auras-extend-down/

[Fenton Crack]

Hmm, yeah, I see what you mean, and I'm now starting to come round to your point of view...

Hopefully it'll get FAQ'd at some point.

 

 

Well, RAW I can certainly see it being that horizontal measurement is the only one you measure outside movement, as you indicated, but worry what that means for the game if that is the intent, and certainly share your hope that it gets FAQ'd, if nothing more than for clarity's sake.

 

 

Regardless, thanks Scorpion for opening my eyes to the issue, as we have not been playing it that way, and it makes me wonder if I'm in the minority or majority in that sense, as there are so many terrain set ups that have very little in the way of vertical terrain above 2"-4", that I wonder how often it even comes up in most games to even consider it.

 

 

@Nicke - My apologies for any threadjacking, I am only considering now the fact that I have pushed the content beyond what you were inquiring about, which is bad form.  Scorpion's insights just got me wanting to get the issue sorted out, and I lost sight of that.   In the end, I've neither done that nor likely added any clarity to your original query and am leaving the thread more confused than when I entered. 

[The Godlyness]

Levi can not summon waifs unless he has los.

Yes Johan can heal on high.

If you Have playing model place a scheme marker on a roof my models can't reach for let's say for protect territory I can stand underneath or within 2" of it and potentially deny you it.

If it's not an aura or a pulse and does not specify los then within is top down view and anything within is affected.

[Fenton Crack]

Levi can not summon waifs unless he has los.

Yes Johan can heal on high.

If you Have playing model place a scheme marker on a roof my models can't reach for let's say for protect territory I can stand underneath or within 2" of it and potentially deny you it.

If it's not an aura or a pulse and does not specify los then within is top down view and anything within is affected.

I thought Levi might still have LoS if he is summoning the Waif within 2" of the edge of the terrain piece (their height),or he has LoS to the edge, or perhaps he has to have LoS of the spot, not LoS of the model as it spawns instead of LoS of the edge where the base would be visible, either way that is just one example I could think of off the top of my head, as I only mentioned some models that either I play, or ones I often play against in my local meta, however I am sure there are several other troublesome interactions one could find game wide.

As far as the Miners chucking scheme markers on roofs, I would agree that with a Protect Territory specifically it would be less of an issue, however with Line in the Sand, Plant Evidence, and Breakthrough it could go NPE pretty quick I would imagine, and those are often in rotation with LiTS always available and Breakthrough a suit rather than a number.

Perhaps, as stated earlier, the answer to the dealing with this oddity is just agreement amongst the players regarding the terrain set up, not unlike what I assume is a convention that one does not place a bunch of enclosed terrain to drop scheme markers inside with incorporeal models, or who knows, maybe people actually game the rules consistently that way.

Both non pulse and non aura AoE (by the infinite height interpretation) and Vantage Point are while IMHO the most unintuitive and unrealistic aspects of the rule set, but both of them are somewhat mitigate by terrain set ups that are more two dimensional (like playing on Vassal), but that can in my opinion make for less interesting boards and games.

Based on many boards I've seen used, many are using Ht 2-4 blocking terrain, but there are generally not large or multiple areas of the board of greatly varying height with deep canals or skywalks, although those boards certainly exist. As the game stands it can be suboptimal to go too high or too low (absent From the Shadows or the like) because of he AP suck of going up and down, and perhaps it should be. Perhaps it is more realistic that running up and down rather than across the board is not optimal, so people make fewer boards with those "bad path choices"

since they will rarely be utilized and vertical boards are harder to transport, etc. The more two-dimensional boards are, the less likely these issues are to chap people's asses, as throwing a marker on top of a Ht 2 covered wagon that is "climbable" is less likely to upset an opponent then throwing on top of a sheer Ht 6 citadel. But it's a shame as I really think the vertically varying boards are cool.

It just seems quite strange that if they felt vertical movement had to be "true" measured for movement to be more realistic or more balanced, why the same would not hold true to prevent Union Miners from throwing scheme markers up vertical cliffs or onto the roofs of three story buildings or some other AoE doing the same. I'm not a dev, nor a closed beta tester though, so perhaps this anomaly was actually intended as doing otherwise had some butterfly effect problem of which I am completely unaware.