cdhay Posted June 7, 2014 Report Share Posted June 7, 2014 I would think that the true mother rapid growth isn't meant to work that way as it is pretty broken if Nekima can effectively summon a young instead of a terror tot. I have played it that they happen at the same time so cant summon a terror tot and then grow it straight away Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Verdeloth Posted June 7, 2014 Report Share Posted June 7, 2014 Well rule wise i cant see at the moment why it shouldnt work thats why i wanna see if im wrong. But the difference is 2 soulstone. 4 tot and 6 for young and you need another upgrade to make it work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sybaris Posted June 8, 2014 Report Share Posted June 8, 2014 As long as both abilities can be used off a single occurence, and that a player can choose the order at which they fire up, then it does work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SW_Neverborn04 Posted June 9, 2014 Report Share Posted June 9, 2014 I've always seen it as actions causing actions vs abilities. Last game I had a warpig with 11wounds on it talking damage from its attack trigger (Rams Stampede)before my Young's blood kicked in, so I did not get the kill. I don't remember the page for that in the rulebook on what comes first, but, with Nekima and the growing, we've always treated it as even though her black blood may kill a model, she did not land the killing blow, so no immediate tot to young growth. It's an outside effect of, her ability, and as it's a specific ability (black blood) it should not count for growing to a young. Black Blood is not a kill. It's a defensive ability/deterrent. The shaman casting pustule or even having a tot attack yourself as it's low damage and you can get a new tot while Nekima while heal the 1 dmg you put on her next activation, or your opponent hitting you is not nekima actually doing damage. the wording can be interpreted as her getting the kill, but I think the above shows that she can't make a tot and grow to young on that upgrade less you flip cards after Born of Blood where you kill an enemy It's like the McMourning poison debate with Sebastian. The good doctor's skills do damage in expunge, however given the wording, one can use armour or SS to lessen it. Not going into specifics, but Sebastian does amplify poison, and from the errata, poison which kills, does not go to the crew which put on the poison. The model simply dies and no crew gets the benefits. It's an ability, and same can be said to reason how Nekima can't just grow a young Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adran Posted June 9, 2014 Report Share Posted June 9, 2014 Black blood and Catalyst (? Ability that means when poison does damage it does an extra 2 damage) are quiet different. Black blood deals damage. Its an ability on Nekimas card, so the kill will count for Nekima. Catalyst doesn't deal damage. It boosts the damage that Poison deals, but it doesn't actually hurt the model. So a model dying to poison was killed by the poison. Likewise Expungs will have no interaction with Catalyset, as it isn't damage from poison, its damage from McMorning which just happens to equal the amount of poison on a model. The timing feels like it shouldn't allow Nekima to summon a young, but I haven't got her true mother upgrade to hand, so can't give a full answer. Will check up on it and be back later (Probably lunch time) with an attempt to sort the timing Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Verdeloth Posted June 9, 2014 Report Share Posted June 9, 2014 The true mother. 2ss This model gains the following Abilities Feast my darling: when this model kills an enemy model, a friendly model within 6 may count as having killed the model for the purpose of grow and mature Born of blood: once per turn when an enemy model within 2 is killed due to black blood ability or black blood pustule action. This model may discard a card to summon a terror tot in base contact with the model before removing it. The tot suffers 2 damage ignoring black blood ability. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adran Posted June 10, 2014 Report Share Posted June 10, 2014 Lookign at the timing of the 2 abilities, they both happen at the same time. I think that this means Nekima gets to decide order. It seems wrong, but the rules do seem to allow the effective summoning of a young from Nekima killing somethign with Black blood. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Verdeloth Posted June 10, 2014 Report Share Posted June 10, 2014 This will also take away the damage the tot siffers to get summoned by nekima. I dont deny its probably not meant to work this way but going after how its worded and the rule book its allow to grow the tot after its summoned with nekimas upgrade: the true mother. But it need the rapid growth upgrade model to be in range to for this to work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joel Posted June 10, 2014 Report Share Posted June 10, 2014 and nekima could also be carrying the rapid growth upgrade... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ikvar Posted June 10, 2014 Report Share Posted June 10, 2014 This will also take away the damage the tot siffers to get summoned by nekima. I dont deny its probably not meant to work this way but going after how its worded and the rule book its allow to grow the tot after its summoned with nekimas upgrade: the true mother. But it need the rapid growth upgrade model to be in range to for this to work. Why would the young not have the 2dmg? - wouldn't you summon the tot first, take 2dmg, and then summon the young whom would still have the 2dmg from summoning the tot? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Verdeloth Posted June 10, 2014 Report Share Posted June 10, 2014 Because the young nephelim get summoned and then terror tot gets sacced. its a new model Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ikvar Posted June 10, 2014 Report Share Posted June 10, 2014 Because the young nephelim get summoned and then terror tot gets sacced. its a new model Ah so the dmg don't carry over to the young? Never thought about that for some reason :-) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joel Posted June 10, 2014 Report Share Posted June 10, 2014 Reading through the true mother upgrade, I'm pretty sure this simply doesn't work. The reason is the difference between killed (past tense, has happened) and kills (will happen in the future). The terror tot might be in play, but nekima then isn't killing anything else - she already did the killing to get the tot in and can't use it twice. I would certainly rule against this at an event I ran. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Verdeloth Posted June 10, 2014 Report Share Posted June 10, 2014 When you kill something both will trigger to both summon a tot and grow. And nekima will put tot spawn first to trigger. It still trigger even if it have a target for grow or not it will just fizzle out if noone is nearby but it will not stop it from trigger. Trigger summon tot discard card Done Trigger Grow someone inside 6"? Yes Place young and sac tot Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Verdeloth Posted June 10, 2014 Report Share Posted June 10, 2014 Again i dont deny that this is not how it suppose to work but it looks like its possible at the moment. I will not use nekima in this way, this was just my first thought when i read her upgrade it looked so weird Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joel Posted June 10, 2014 Report Share Posted June 10, 2014 No, the freshly created terror tot is not around when nekima kills the enemy model, the terror tot only comes into being once the model has been killed. Since it is not around at the time the killing took place, it can't grow from it. Tense is important. Don't confuse the model being killed and actually being removed from the tabletop. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Verdeloth Posted June 11, 2014 Report Share Posted June 11, 2014 But the trigger is not on the tot its on nekima. Im aware the tot comes "after" the kill but the grow trigger should still be pending on nekima because the player choosed wich order both triggers would activate in. The tot dont need the kill because thats nekimas upgrade to "grow" when she gets the kill in this scenario This is what we MTG players calls the stack. We resolve one trigger at the time and every trigger need to adapt after how the board look like at that moment Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joel Posted June 11, 2014 Report Share Posted June 11, 2014 But malifaux doesn't have the LIFO stack like magic does. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Verdeloth Posted June 11, 2014 Report Share Posted June 11, 2014 Malifaux still say that if you have multiple triggers you need to arrange the triggers and resolve them in order ? Im at work so cant find the page now in the rule book . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joel Posted June 11, 2014 Report Share Posted June 11, 2014 but these are not triggers. If the wording on both abilities was "killed" then I could see it working as you described - but the terror tot is only generated when the enemy model has already become "killed". The growth works by looking for a model that can grow, that is available at the moment nekima "kills" - and at this point the tot has not yet been generated. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Verdeloth Posted June 11, 2014 Report Share Posted June 11, 2014 I will pick up the book and read up on this when im home. What you imply on is that all check out at the same time because its not a "trigger" ? Kill / killed shouldnt matter if its like i say that we can decide the order of the events. But if its like you say then yes then this wont be possible I still feel like ability / trigger / bury unbury / skills / spells should be arrange in some way and just not say that it all happen at the same time when multiple of them activates the same time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leebat Posted June 11, 2014 Report Share Posted June 11, 2014 i would say that Joel is correct the card states " When this model kills an enemy model " the tot would have to be there at the time of the killing. were as the born to kill says " when an enemy model within 2 is killed " after its dead it can summon a tot the summoned tot cant grow as it wasn't there when the model died 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Verdeloth Posted June 11, 2014 Report Share Posted June 11, 2014 Yes i agree to IF everything happen the same time. If we are unable to decide wich event that come first Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ProximoCoal Posted June 11, 2014 Report Share Posted June 11, 2014 agreed with Lee and Joel. One happens immediately as it happens and the other is afterwards. There isn't a stacking of orders because they happen at different times. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deValmont Posted June 11, 2014 Report Share Posted June 11, 2014 I think that as well as the use of the rules 'as worded' there is another implicit level of 'rules' regarding the social contract that both players agree to when they start a game. It is my personal opinion that if a strategy or technique requires you to pick very carefully through the rules looking for places where it can slip through, and if the outcome of the strategy would be an event that could cause a large shift in the game to your advantage, then although you may not be breaking any of the rules in the book, you are playing at odds to the spirit of what you are doing, which is playing a game for you both to enjoy. The act of finding out spurious rulebending combos that can be used to smash the other player into oblivion is all too common in Warhammer 40k, which is one of the reasons I don't like it, and would hate for Malifaux to go the same way. But at least we don't have optimised net lists, I suppose. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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