So, how does "When killed, heal 1 point..." work?

[Zalabar]

This model gains the following Ability:

 

Blackened Scepter:While this model is in play, friendly Horseman models which are killed or sacrificed are buried instead and heal 1 damage. When this model is buried, unbury any Horseman buried in this way within 2" of this model before removing it

 

From this thread

 

Interesting on the wording... you can die while buried. Nothing here says references it's buried or unburied state when checking for death.

 So, I think the operation goes...

 

Pony is reduced to negative bajillion points->Check for Levi buried state. If he's buried, pony is soopah ded. If he is not, bury pony, heal one point.

Pony is now at 1+negative bajillion points. Rules for less than 1 hp come into effect, setting the model to ded/sac'd. But that triggers Black Scepter, which then removes another point... repeat ad infinitum until the model no longer has to check for dead, which is only when it has more HP than 0, stepping back up by one each time... so the pony is finally buried with 1 HP.

 

 

I am curious about this keep healing one wound ad nauseum til alive ruling you guys have come up with. 

Is there a precedent for it? Is there something in the rules that allows you to count as killed many times?

I believe the rules for killed are something along the lines of "When a model is reduced to 0 or fewer wounds it is removed as killed".

If that is the case I'm honestly curious how you are triggering "killed" by healing 1 wound repeatedly.

So, does it work this way, and is my interpretation of states a valid one?

[Ausplosions]

And no Justin. It's really just those two words, that single time, that people have grasped on to. You've not missed anything.

[Zalabar]

Lets break this up in simple questions

 

1. Do we all agree that you cannot target a buried model?

2. Do we all agree that if you cannot target a buried model, you are not able to heal it any further?

3. Do we all agree that nothing in the ability implies that you can break this rule, or implies that it will ever heal more then 1wd?

 

If we can all agree on these 3 simple points, logic would imply(in my humble opinion) that the target would not go below zero wounds, as this ability would otherwise be completely useless 90% of the time, and you would simply have a dead Horeman in the ground  

 

If I am not correct in my conclusion, then I am just happy I do not play Leveticus as this ability would be extremely unreliable to say it diplomatic

 

1; No. Ignoring Tara's crew, the wording is that these models are never considered within LoS or within the range of effects, and they don't count as 'in play' for rules that reference if the models are in-play. As long as the rules don't specify LoS, range of effects (by which I'm assuming melee range, shooty range, pulses, etc) or say the target has to be in play, all other options are valid.

2; Ignoring weird cases like where the model has a rule to heal without targeting, sure. Like... Levi himself.

3; This would be the crux of my question. Does it keep checking to see if the initial causes are still in effect, or is it once and you're done?

 

And since Justin is in on this one, I assume we'll get new wording tomorrow.

 

Also, yeah; assuming that negative numbers set HP to zero after damage is done solves all the complications with this one.

Edited April 14, 2014 by Zalabar

[hypoking]

Thank you very much for the clarification. Its nice to have this settled.

 

Edit: @aus> Somebody told me a ways back that negative health totals were why dumb luck always hit back for full damage. Just took what they said and ran with it I guess.

[Ausplosions]

1; No. Ignoring Tara's crew, the wording is that these models are never considered within LoS or within the range of effects, and they don't count as 'in play' for rules that reference if the models are in-play. As long as the rules don't specify LoS, range of effects (by which I'm assuming melee range, shooty range, pulses, etc) or say the target has to be in play, all other options are valid.

2; Ignoring weird cases like where the model has a rule to heal without targeting, sure. Like... Levi himself.

3; This would be the crux of my question. Does it keep checking to see if the initial causes are still in effect, or is it once and you're done?

And since Justin is in on this one, I assume we'll get new wording tomorrow.

Are you seriously saying you can target buried models.

Seriously.

[Ausplosions]

Edit: @aus> Somebody told me a ways back that negative health totals were why dumb luck always hit back for full damage. Just took what they said and ran with it I guess.

It would still do that, but not because of negative health totals.

[Zalabar]

Are you seriously saying you can target buried models.

Seriously.

 

Uh... yeah. As long as it doesn't require a range, Line of Sight, or the ability in question says they have to be in play. Isn't that what the rules say?

[Ikvar]

Without having the rulebook with me right now, I am pretty sure you are not able to target a model that is buried, unless a skill specifically states it... which this one does not

[Zalabar]

If it does, then it's not under buried; what I'm saying is coming from page 47 directly. Is there something else for Targeting?

[Thaarup]

So you are saying things can die twice then or more. Ok then here's a thing, killjoy is at 1 wound hits a model with his cleaver reducing it to <0 wounds triggers onslaught and brings them further <0 would he heal twice then? *Waves at ausplosions*

No only if the "killed" model somehow avoid being killed the first time. I don´t think there is any argument for a model that is already declared Killed  to be Killed again. There are no Killed +1 so to speak.

[Ikvar]

I just took my book out and read everything on page 47... and I have no idea where you read that you can target a buried model?

-or are you saying that the fact that it does not specifically states that you -can not- target a buried model... means that you can? O_o

[Thaarup]

Before this gets too much further out of hand, could somebody point me to where in the rules the process of models going into negative wounds is explicitly stated?

 

So far, all I have is pg. 46:

 

"If the model is reduced to 0 or fewer Wounds it is immediately removed from the game as killed."

 

The "or fewer" clause is there to clarify that you don't have to get a model to EXACTLY 0 wounds to kill it (and if "or fewer" wasn't there, I guarantee that's the conversation we'd be having right now).

 

But is negative wounds spelled out anywhere else as a thing that can happen, or is it just those two words? This is a genuine question; you guys have me thinking I missed something.

 

I don´t think so. page 46 is the only place I have read anything about the whole Killed state.

In my local meta we have always been playing with a minimum of 0 wounds, (and I think that is the logical thing)...but I can actually not find anywhere in the book where it is spelled out.

[Sharp_GT]

I think we can use the '"Justin method" on this discussion and apply some common sense:

 

Models are in possession of wounds and lose them when damaged, there isn't a way for them to have 'negative wounds', they simply lose wounds until they drop to having none. Think about a pile of poker chips on your stat cards representing wounds, you remove them when damage is dealt but there's no way to have less than zero.

 

When a model is killed, it is killed. So after the current action it gets removed from the game,. Killed is not a condition, a capitalized defined game term, or something like that. Killed means a model has been reduced to zero wounds, and has a game action to be carried out because of it. Applying just a touch of logic here goes a long way

 

If a model is buried it is removed from play, and cannot have LOS or range drawn to or from it. With the exception of Tara's crew buried models just don't interact with models that are in play.

 

Finally, just use a bit of logic and look for the intended outcome for a game rule or effect. It turns out the people writing Malifaux are pretty smart and make it pretty clear what's supposed to happen.

 

So to the OP's situation: Levi's avatar upgrade is meant to replace other riders being killed with them being buried with 1Wd remaining.

 

The sticky part is what do you do with something like an assassination trigger killing a model even though it hasn't been reduced to 0Wd?

[Zalabar]

I just took my book out and read everything on page 47... and I have no idea where you read that you can target a buried model?

-or are you saying that the fact that it does not specifically states that you -can not- target a buried model... means that you can? O_o

 

More that because it lists a number of things you can't target instead of just saying 'you can't target a buried model,' it works on the standard rules except in those cases.

 

It's the 'special rule trumps a general rule' rule.

[Ausplosions]

More that because it lists a number of things you can't target instead of just saying 'you can't target a buried model,' it works on the standard rules except in those cases.

It's the 'special rule trumps a general rule' rule.

The book also doesn't say I CANT declare my models unkillable. Or that my cards all count as Red Jokers.

Rules don't work the way you seem to think they do.

They tell you what you can do. Not what you can't.

[The Godlyness]

Permissive rules set. Internet now explodes.

[HalcyonSeraph]

More that because it lists a number of things you can't target instead of just saying 'you can't target a buried model,' it works on the standard rules except in those cases.

 

It's the 'special rule trumps a general rule' rule.

 

You need LOS to target something. Even attacks that ignore LOS have a range - and you can't measure to something that isn't on the table. I am having a hard time coming up with an example of something that targets yet doesn't require LOS or range, other than the attacks that specifically target buried models like Tara or Void Wretches. 

[Dracomax]

Is it just me, or does everyone pretty much agree on "Wounds are absolute numbers, and as such cannot be reduced below 0; therefore, when a model heals from killed, it is from 0"?

 

The only real objection I have is to a conversation about a previous version of Jack Daw in the no longer existent wave 2 beta, in which I was told the other way, and I'm willing to concede that the conversation has been obsoleted in whole.

 

So is there anything new being added, or are we arguing just for the sake of argument?

[Ikvar]

I think it is safe to say that this "problem" have been solved, and that the thread can be closed to avoid any further needless discussion

[sharpobjects]

Doesnt the ability Eternal on Bad Juju's upgrade Eternal Fiend work very similar to Leve's Avatar ability described in the op? If Bad Juju is on the table with 1 wound left and a model does 8 damage and kills it, then it's Eternal ability comes in and says this model is not killed. Instead, bury this model. Remove all conditions and heal all damage on this model.

 

I never seen anyone mention what happens to the other 7 damage that Bad Juju didnt suffer. Are we suggesting that Bad Juju would heal the 9 damage he had on his card and then take the left over 7 damage? No. Bad Juju was reduced to zero wounds and killed, but his Eternal ability kicks in, he is not killed but buried instead. You would remove all conditions and heal all the damage that was on his card which is 9. Then he awaits a swamfiend model to die so he can unbury at full health.

 

I know Bad Juju doesnt ignore sacrifice like the Leve Avatar ability allows the Horsemen to do but his Eternal works very similar and I have never seen anyone confused by the way Bad Juju comes back from being killed, then not killed, then bury and healing and at some point unburied. 

[Dracomax]

Well, Bad Juju does say heal to full, so at that point, you could say that it went to negatives, and then all of those, in addition to the wounds from zero to full are healed. It doesn't seem like it applies here.

[Myth]

You need LOS to target something. Even attacks that ignore LOS have a range - and you can't measure to something that isn't on the table. I am having a hard time coming up with an example of something that targets yet doesn't require LOS or range, other than the attacks that specifically target buried models like Tara or Void Wretches. 

 

Right. I'm pretty sure it is in the rules section on "Resolving Actions" - during step 1, you declare your target, and unless the Action says otherwise, you need range and LoS to the target by default.  

 

I suppose, technically, if you had an Action that affected models without using the word Target, or having a Range, or using the terms "in play" or "in LoS"... you could argue that it could affect buried models. But I'm not aware of anything in the game that fits that scenario.

[sharpobjects]

It says heal all damage "on this model". Not heal all damage taken and previously suffered. Someone could still argue the left over damage because its not on the model now is it? I think the left over damage arguement is silly and I brought up Bad juju because his mechanic is very similar and also used the word "instead" which people were arguing different interpetations. 

 

Whether I heal all damage on the model or I heal to 1 wound left neither implies dealing with left over damage that went beyond the models wound count. Once the model reaches the killed state no other damage applies, such as left over damage. No one as far as I can recall has had a hard time understanding Bad Juju's Eternal so I am not sure why they cannot understand Leve's Avatar ability regardless if its heal to 1 wound left or heall all damage on the model. One model comes back with 1 wound remaining if it was killed and the other comes back full health in the case of Bad Juju. 

[Ikvar]

"It says heal all damage "on this model". Not heal all damage taken and previously suffered. Someone could still argue the left over damage because its not on the model now is it?"

 

...I am going to assume that you are simply trying to prove a point, and dont really believe in this kind of logic yourself, because this is just extremely... "silly"...

 

And can an admin please lock this thread before someone will argue that you can smash your opponents models with a baseball bat, as it does not specifically state anywhere in the rules that you CANT do it >>

[Zalabar]

Yeah; I agree. There are other questions that are emerging here, but the reason the topic was raised is pretty well defined.

 

Black Scepter will bury a horsemen with 1 HP as currently written.

 

So, I hope everyone looks forward to my next thread, where I ask if it can affect a buried horseman!

[MudgeBlack]

Lets break this up in simple questions

 

1. Do we all agree that you cannot target a buried model?

2. Do we all agree that if you cannot target a buried model, you are not able to heal it any further?

3. Do we all agree that nothing in the ability implies that you can break this rule, or implies that it will ever heal more then 1wd?

 

If we can all agree on these 3 simple points, logic would imply(in my humble opinion) that the target would not go below zero wounds, as this ability would otherwise be completely useless 90% of the time, and you would simply have a dead Horeman in the ground  

 

If I am not correct in my conclusion, then I am just happy I do not play Leveticus as this ability would be extremely unreliable to say it diplomatic

Tara's crew can target as well as heal/damage buried models.  It's kind of their thing.  I will have to look up the exact wording on the various abilities that they use.