Tara has dreams of pain

[Pallas4]

Hi

 

With Eternal Journey, can she use Manifest Nightmare of the dreamer ? It's not the action whicth name a model, but the controler...

 

If she does, the nightmare is controled by her, right ?

 

thanks

[E.T.A. Hoffman]

The owner and alignment do not change. So the models you make would be the Dreamers. You'd be doing him a favor to summon nightmares with your own stones!

[Anaxiamander]

Even though Tara is the one performing the action? I mean, I'm familiar with that premise when you use Obey, or something like that, but if Tara is the performer, the model should be controlled by Tara's controller, yes? I honestly could be wrong here, but it seems odd to me at first glance.

[Fetid Strumpet]

Controlled models never change alignment. There are a few control effects that make a single model friendly for the action, but the overall alignment never shifts. An enemy model remains an enemy.

[Ausplosions]

You are making an enemy model summon another enemy model.

[Pallas4]

Thanks a lot ^^

[Snickch]

I have to disagree here, tbh.

 

The whole "an enemy model remains an enemy model"- thing would be valid if Tara were using "Echoes of the void" to summon Nightmares via a 'controlled' Dreamer.

 

But in this particular case, she is not. "Whispers from Darkness" from the "Eternal Journey" Upgrade makes it so that Tara herself is actually performing the action, not a proxy or other model.

 

So yeah, Tara could absolutley summon her own Nightmares against a burried Dreamer.

[Anaxiamander]

You are making an enemy model summon another enemy model.

If we were talking about Obliteration Symbiote's "Echoes of the Void", I'd agree without question. That has "this model control" the action from the unburied model (ignoring the fact that Echoes is non-Leader, but we could carry this example to, say, Sebastian to make the same point). Any summoning you did while controlling Dreamer/Sebastian with Echoes (and, similiarly, with Obey and other resembling Actions) would be summoning for the opponent, hands-down, becausing the acting model is Dreamer/Sebastian. However, (1) Whispers From Darkness from the Eternal Journey Upgrade is written in the same manner as Lazarus' (0) Assimilate, where one first chooses a (1) Action printed on the target or its Upgrades, then the performing model (Tara/Lazarus) is the one performing the Action. If we consult the rulebook, it is stated clearly, "the summoned model belongs to the acting model's Crew, and is under the control of the acting model's player". Tara is doing the action, not the Dreamer, and thus, Tara is the acting model. The rule would suggest that Tara would be summoning her own Nightmare (or, in the case of Sebastian mentioned above, would be summoning her own Canine Remains). Likewise, if there was a Construct with a (1) summoning Action that doesn't mention a model by name(I can't remember any off the top of my head besides a Valedictorian-led Crew with the Spare Parts Upgrade), Lazarus could make use of it in the same manner. In what way is the rulebook statement on summoning complicated by these kinds of Actions?

[Fetid Strumpet]

Tara can't use any summon in the game I can think of using Whispers from Darkness. The only summon which doesn't name a model that I know of is a 0 action on the Mechanical Rider. Every other summon I know of specifically mentions a model by name and forces you to name a model.

[Anaxiamander]

Just as a quick note, ignore what I said about Sebastian and the Valedictorian above (just, specifically what I said about them); I forgot that those summons name a model by name. Terrible example, I recant it.

 

Regarding summons which mention a model by name as an Action: the summons which do not list a model by name and are an Action are as follows:

Nicodem's (1) Re-animator (Resurrectionist Minion Undead)

Dreamer's (1) Manifest Nightmare (Minion or Enforcer Nightmare)

Molly's (1) The Ones Left Behind (Resurrectionist Belle Minion, also Horror/Spirit w/ Upgrades)

Kirai's (1) Blood and Wind (Resurrectionist Spirit Minion)

Not a (1) Action:

Mechanical Rider (non-Totem Arcanist Construct with SS cost 4)

Myranda (any non-Master, non-Henchman Arcanist Beast)

(I don't think I missed any)

 

Regarding summons which force you to name a model: if that is equivalent to "listing a model by name", I hope that it's made clear in the FAQ, as it is not immediately clear. Perfectly willing to accept that's the case, once it's been made clear, but being required to name a model and listing a model by name are not the same thing. That said, it would seem odd to me that Mechanical Rider would be some kind of special case, of having to choose a model to summon without naming it, while every other model that does so must name what they summon.

[Ausplosions]

Tara can't use any summon in the game I can think of using Wfrom Darkness. The only summon which doesn't name a model that I know of is a 0 action on the Mechanical Rider. Every other summon I know of specifically mentions a model by name and forces you to name a model.

I'm pretty sure that's not what is meant by lists a model.

It means the written text of the spell lists a model. Not sure why you would think otherwise. Listing and naming/announcing are two very different things.

And yes, if using Echoes, she would control what was summoned, but if controlling the enemy, then she wouldn't.

[Fetid Strumpet]

Because one of the things the limitation on copying or using abilities which name miniatures was put in for was specifically to prevent models which cannot summon themselves from copying such abilities and using them.

 

Let's take Nicodem's reanimator spell. As part of the spell you must name a Resser minion model. Just because the spell does not list a model specifically by name in it's description it still requires you to do so, thus preventing you from using it via Whispers.

[Ausplosions]

Because one of the things the limitation on copying or using abilities which name miniatures was put in for was specifically to prevent models which cannot summon themselves from copying such abilities and using them.

Let's take Nicodem's reanimator spell. As part of the spell you must name a Resser minion model. Just because the spell does not list a model specifically by name in it's description it still requires you to do so, thus preventing you from using it via Whispers.

You name a model.

A model is not listed by name.

Let's try it your way;

I copy a (1) Action.

I target a model. I don't point and say "that model". I say I'm targetting "Model Name". Thereby excluding Tara from ever using this action.

Again, naming a model as part of an action is not the same as an action listing a model by name.

[hypoking]

In order for Tara to be barred from using Dreams of Pain/ Reanimator/ One's Left Behind or variants through Whispers it would have to be ruled that the name a model clause is considered to list all conceivable models appropriate to the ability by default. To my knowledge no such ruling exists.

[Fetid Strumpet]

I disagree on your interpretation. Perhaps this is yet another item Wyrd needs to put on their FAQ.

[Hateful Darkblack]

Oh, this is neat! The Dreamer is especially vulnerable to this, because he gets buried so often, right?

 

And Tara can then use his (1) to summon? She can't take control of anyone to force them to summon, but she can copy the Dreamer's (1) action and use that to summon. 

 

That's awesome. I think that's correct, too! You can do that! Neat.

[zFiend]

I disagree on your interpretation. Perhaps this is yet another item Wyrd needs to put on their FAQ.

 

Yeah I agree with Fetid, Tara can't copy Manifest Nightmares. There's also the part of Waking +1. Which indicates that Tara can't copy it, it names abilities that are unique to the Dreamer as it requires to name a model you want to summon.

[Hateful Darkblack]

Naming abilities by name isn't forbidden to copy, nor are Conditions that feel like they are associated with a particular model. Just naming models by name.

[Ausplosions]

Abilities that make you the player decide and name a model are not the same as abilities that specifically list a model

They are not even close to being the same thing.

ALL abilities that target make the player name a model.

It's "I target Mature Nephelem" not "I target guy with wings over there".

[MasterDisaster]

(1) Manifest Nightmares (Ca 6M / TN: * / Rg: 6):

Name a Minion or Enforcer Nightmare model. The

TN of this Action is 10MM plus the Soulstone

Cost of the named model. Summon the named

model within range and deal damage to it equal to

its Wd minus one, which may not be reduced. This

model gains the following Condition for the rest of

the game: "Waking +1: Reduce the healing from

this model's Pleasant Dreams Ability by -1. This

Condition may not be removed by the Actions of

other friendly models."

 

 

So above is the text from Manifest Nightmares copied and pasted directly from the card. Nowhere in this action's text does it specifically mention a model by name unlike the (1) Daydreaming Action on the Dreamer's card which lists both Daydreams and Alps through it's trigger. The action's text requires you (the player) to state which minion/enforcer you wish to summon, it is not the action dictating which specific minion to summon. The action is dictating that the player must name the model being summoned and is providing you with the restrictions upon which of these models may be summoned. I'd argue with this in mind and unlike Daydreaming Tara can copy the Manifest Nightmares action whilst Dreamer is buried. 

 

 

[Ausplosions]

(1) Manifest Nightmares (Ca 6M / TN: * / Rg: 6):

Name a Minion or Enforcer Nightmare model. The

TN of this Action is 10MM plus the Soulstone

Cost of the named model. Summon the named

model within range and deal damage to it equal to

its Wd minus one, which may not be reduced. This

model gains the following Condition for the rest of

the game: "Waking +1: Reduce the healing from

this model's Pleasant Dreams Ability by -1. This

Condition may not be removed by the Actions of

other friendly models."

So above is the text from Manifest Nightmares copied and pasted directly from the card. Nowhere in this action's text does it specifically mention a model by name unlike the (1) Daydreaming Action on the Dreamer's card which lists both Daydreams and Alps through it's trigger. The action's text requires you (the player) to state which minion/enforcer you wish to summon, it is not the action dictating which specific minion to summon. The action is dictating that the player must name the model being summoned and is providing you with the restrictions upon which of these models may be summoned. I'd argue with this in mind and unlike Daydreaming Tara can copy the Manifest Nightmares action whilst Dreamer is buried.

Exactly.

[hypoking]

For what little its worth, the raw makes sense. Can't see it sticking in the long term but that's neither here nor there.

[Ausplosions]

Why not? It's hardly broken.

[hypoking]

Not saying it is. I just don't see one chance in ten that this is intended.  As far as I can tell every time quirky RAW interactions have butted up against intent in wave 2 RAW's lost.