Whut

I didn't mean gunline - a ton of ranged attackers that can't hold their own in melee so they try to blow the enemy off the board - I mean your list has way more ranged pressure than the usual list, if your crew and the enemy crew are 12" away, the enemy is probably going to come to you to stop getting shot. It's not a melee monster like Joss/Howard/etc but it can at least hold its own in combat after pincushioning the enemy a bit. About the whole "not slow" thing, it's strange cause in order to move (like, away from Ironsides that is) with gunsmiths you're not fighting with gunsmiths. I mean it works, but it makes me uneasy to spend a 7pt ranged model's AP for anything other than shooting. Am I just being nitpicky? I feel like I'm nitpicking xD You have convinced me to give the gunsmiths a solid try through - at least with Ironsides. I feel like without the + flip to damage their min 2 is just too restrictive to have them excel for 7 SS each. What do you do if you didn't draw any low rams? How often does that happen (I assume with 3 gunsmiths, at least 1 goes without fast every turn if not 2 usually)?

Hmm okay, maybe it's just the strange card theory concept combined with my natural pessimistic outlook? Im just worried of the case that you flip 4 cards and it comes up 13,13,11,10 cause that really sucks. But then again it could be 13,2,2,1 so yadda yadda yadda it's basically back to luck. Congrats guys, you swayed my opinion. Props! I still stick by not wanting to flip either joker though, as I would always rather have the RJ for damage and that just isn't happening often when 24 cards go to attacks and only (assuming all 6 attacks are hits) 6-12 are flipped for damage. But whatever So that was a nice tangent. Now that this has transformed into a general Ironsides list thread, let's carry on (mods please rename if needed?) So are your guys opinions more towards taking "Gunsmiths or mages" for ranged support or "Gunsmiths and mages" and going a full ranged pressure game like papa smurf's list? And lastly, does this list excel anywhere that Colette + D Acolytes doesn't? Cause that's my go-to for ranged pressure at the moment but I've always wanted a reason to use Ironsides

Okay on the horror duels thing, but this means you need something to burn it first... As for the +++ flips: Well it's not just two cards. If I have a +++ that means I'm flipping 4 cards. If I flip the red joker, I definitely DO NOT WANT THAT because I would much much rather increase the chances that the red joker comes up on a damage flip (usually). I don't want the black joker for obvious reasons. I also don't want multiple cards of 10+ or the red joker or the black joker, because then you are wasting precious cards, even if you do succeed. Let's say you have 2 Gunsmiths and you managed to get them both fast and in position to shoot. You are now flipping 4cards×3ap×2models=24 cards (ignoring damage flips), which is close to half of the deck. Sure, you will succeed much more than you fail, but I feel like you would succeed almost as much without going through half your deck and wasting tons of good cards on attack flips When you really want them for damage flips. Maybe someone better at math can estimate the effects of this, but I feel like spreading out the use of your deck greater benefits you by getting the high cards through and being able to cheat the low cards, rather than going through it all and wasting a decent portion. Then again, one could say the opposite, that when you go through half the deck like this you minimize the effect of all the low cards in half of your deck. Again, someone better at math please come here. As of now, I'm still fairly strongly of the opinion that more than a plus flip is a waste though

Ahh, okay in that case I take back what I said about that

How often does built in negative flips come in? Not very. And when they do, you already have a + with all HPM models. If they're in cover I guess it's useful, but again that's very specific models. Against most normal models with cover, it's alead taken care of by HPM. What does it do against Horror and Manipulative? If anything, Oxfordian Mages have the edge there because of their WP6 and + to WP duels. Also many horror models are also incorporeal which Mages counter. And December Acolytes are just immune to Horror to begin with. If you're relying on that +++ for your triggers, that's totally luck based. You might get what you want, you might not. If you're using the other zero, you're draining your hand. Not to mention you also want low rams for Fast, putting even more hand dependence on. Their triggers are nice, especially for ignoring armor +2, H2K, and soulstone prevention, but the question is, is it worth it? The push for fast is pretty cool, but that takes rams like I said. And if Ironsides wants to pull them, she's taking 1 attack to the face, requiring either more low cards, soulstone prevention, high cards, or you can relent and take the 2 damage, which sucks. I admit I'm just playing devils advocate at this point so please don't get frustrated with me I do already see one use for them and that's just flexibility - the ability to pressure from afar and still be decent in combat when the gap closes - I just don't know if other options would serve better for their cost like the Mages, Silent Ones, or DAcolyte

It's not just for blocking LoS, if there's a natural choke point of impassable terrain and your opponent deploys behind it, just pull Raspy or the Wendigo up, activate them, and throw down an ice pillar. Suddenly everything without leap or flight has to waste tons (and I do mean TONS) of AP walking all the way around whatever tree, wall, or building is blocking them. By the time turn 2 hits, you have moderate control over the center of the board and he's still scrambling to get out of his deployment zone.

But do you really need a +++ to attack? Isn't just + enough? I feel like +++ is inviting the black joker, wasting the red joker, or just wasting multiple severe cards on one flip

I just wish Gunsmiths were a little better at what they do. They're like the ultimate jack of all trades model and for 7ss that just doesn't appeal to me because of the "master of none" part. Their survivability is average, Df5 Wp5 Wd7, H2K, but no H2W or armor. Their damage is average, 2/3/4 unless they get a trigger, and isn't the point of HPM to go for high Medium and Severe damage models? They go through your hand fast, and I already hear that Ironsides can be a but hand dependent. Speed is average and can be fast but that again requires a trigger. Idk, it just doesn't seem worth it for some reason. Is the ranged/melee flexibility really worth the 7ss cost? I just can't seem to be sold on these guys no matter how much I look at them or look at others praising them, I just feel they require draining your hand or a lot of luck to be exceptional, and otherwise you're better off with a ranged model and a melee model than two Gunsmiths (let's say 2 Metal Gamin and a Ox Mage or DAcolyte)

No upgrades on Snowstorm and Ice Golem? Not even the amazingly amazing Imbued Energies?

Rasputina. I'd like to play her like Sonnia, just take her to give your opponent headaches and then build the rest of your crew specifically for the schemes. But sadly Raspy needs/wants support too much to be able to do that. For movement she wants Snowstorm (or the Captain?), for damage she and her crew need 2-3 Ice Gamin (in case one dies) and personally I can't imagine not taking Arcane Effigy for that extra burning damage on blasts. You want Wendigo because that 3 point minion is crazy. All of that (2 gamin and Snowy for this calculation) totals to 31 soulstones (assuming 5 points of upgrades) leaving 19 for more stuff. Mech Rider, Myranda/Blessed, December Acolytes, Silent Ones/Ice Dancer, are all 12/9/7/6 soulstones, so if you want a moderate pool of 4 or 5 (and Raspy does for Overpower) you are basically restricted to taking one or two of these. That's not a lot of variety/flexibility. How do you build your lists? Are you ever afraid of getting a model killed and losing an important chain in the Frozen Heart synergy? I even built a list before and got tons of positive feedback on it, and I knew it was strong, and yet I always feel spread too thin anyway. Maybe because I'm so used to playing lists with summoning (Ramos, Colette, Nicodem, Mech Rider) I feel this way? I like being able to replace activations (when one dies, I summon another) and I hate having this feeling of death being a permanent loss of resources.

How resilient are the Mages usually? If one dies, the other loses quite a bit of effectiveness so can they survive attacks from things that can reach them? Of course that varies from a little necropunk to the Sow so maybe not the best question. Also, what upgrade to run other than blood? Nemesis is great against enemy killy masters and guarantees that if the blood is targeted and dies, nemesis still has his Tomes. The last one (I'll call it blink) gives some melee escape options and lets your warding rune models regenerate, which is fantastic on H2K Ironsides and ups Captain's surviveability as well. Also do you find having 24 points tied up in this combo restrictive? For Ironsides I also definitely 100% want Firestarter (scheming and easy to damage self) and Johan (duh) which leaves me with barely enough for a low cost model (5ss left) like a metal gamin or performer. 7 models total is meh, I generally like having 8 or 9. Is this better on different deployment? It feels like this is significantly stronger for flank or close deployment so the Mages don't have to waste time moving and might even get to shoot turn 1. What triggers do you tend to end up using the most? I feel like I would just do Slow once and then pack on burning unless I know I'll kill it or I need it moved. I feel like it's too risky to try to pull the enemy close just to use the zero action, or maybe not? Last question. This list seems to be best used against Ressers as it is mostly Lure-proof. But Ironsides' best strategy is Turf war (Recon/Stake means you don't use HPM as much, Mages feel like a liability for Reckoning, for Squatters you are nearly always better off with Colette) but it doesn't feel like this list will stand a chance against Nicodem's ball of +Ml, +Df flip death. When would you use this list?

Hmm, never thought of that reactivate coryphee bomb idea, that's pretty cool. I thought of doing something similar with Myranda, actually, but it never clicked to use the coryphee. Here's the tough question though: is the Coryphee reactivate trick more useful than prompting Howard for tons and tons of fun killy death, or a December Acolyte for draining half your opponents hand as well as slowing up to 5 or 6 models? Or Joss to have him prepare a nice 8 damage punch on his activation? Same goes for a nice Johan Flurry. My biggest problem with Colette is that I have TOO many options for how to ruin my opponents day, and all of them are so tempting, but she herself has only 3 AP to prompt with. Another fun idea that I always wanted to try but never did is have a mobile toolkit give Lazarus +damage flips, then have Lazarus Assimilate and teleport to a friendly Coryphee and send off 3 shots with his massive gun. Sadly I feel taking so many armor 2 models is inviting a disasterous loss against anything which ignores it.

I love Colette and I don't think I'll ever use Coryphees for the exact reason you outlined, in fact I asked the same thing a long while back (Look for a thread with a title like "Low Wounds Models" around page 3 of the Arcanists forum). Basically as long as anyone has a Severe damage of more than 5, I'm too scared to use them. The general response was to just combine them earlier if they are ever in danger.

The Captain. I have heard on a podcast or two that he is our best henchman, but I rarely if ever hear of him on the forums for some reason. I can see his uses too, but I'm afraid of his expensive cost combined with his lack of area control (by which I mean he isn't a brick that stands there and doesn't budge like Joss, his resilience comes from being illusive, meaning he will not be good in an attrition war). I really like him and really want to utilize his pushes for things like turf war, but with our HUGE selection of 10+ point models that are stupid powerful (Joss, Howard, Mech Rider, Snowstorm, Lazarus) I'm hesitant to take the captain alone (again, not a brick) and spending 24+ ss on two models leaves me scared of getting out activated. Also his personal upgrade is a must take, right? Making him 12 points with 1 upgrade slot and thus making me choose between Imbued Energies and Warding Runes. Speaking of Warding Runes, I REALLY REALLY like this upgrade. If it could be taken on Enforcers it would be downright overpowered. And to make it go farther, I have always wanted to try taking the Blood Ward Oxford Mage. Problem is threefold. One, they are not cheap. Not expensive, but not cheap. And because they are not cheap and not a frontline model, you continue to search for additions to your frontline elsewhere (Requiring Joss, Mech, Cerberus, a few metal gamin, something along those lines somewhere else in the list). Problem number two, if you want the blood ward Mage you kinda have to take a second mage, because the triggers on their attacks are a very important part of taking them. Slow, Burning+1, pushes, these are all strong effects that you don't want to soak your Tomes if they don't have to, because otherwise you'd be better off with a silent one or December Acolyte. This means you have to take two mages and keep them in 3" of each other, presenting problem three, they are highly immobile. Not only do they want to stay within 3" of each other, they actually want to stay still most of the time to flurry. Meaning that is 12 more points of your list that is not playing attrition nor scheming. Now, the Oxford Mages need a target outside of combat to flurry at, which makes the captain a pretty good deal. He pulls targets out of combat and then the Mages tear them to pieces, while the Mages themselves provide buffs through Warding Runes. This sounds like a good idea, but like I said before is expensive. I really like the idea and want to use it, any advice on Master (Feeling Ironsides), enemy faction, schemes, etc where this will be most useful? What about the rest of the list? Thanks in advance! Oh also, is this ever better under certain conditions than our other more often used options?

I've never done this myself cause I personally don't like Mei Fang (I've always preferred support over hitty masters), but in a game where bodyguard is on the table, take Kang with Imbued Protection and sit him in the middle of the table, and then DON'T take bodyguard on him. Your opponent will see that model in your list and spend all game trying to take him down, meanwhile Kang smacks everyone around and holds them up and you're off getting points everywhere else. Just make sure to take a scheme that you can reveal late in the game to keep up the ruse. If you have the extra ss, take the counter attack upgrade on him, but Imbued Energies or Warding Runes are just as good.

To an extent, yes. Nearly any combination of schemes and strat can be completed with just the arcanists beasts, but you are kind of forced into a pounce/alpha strike strategy because Marcus, Cerberus, Myranda, Blessed, etc all kind of do the same thing damage-wise. Fast, somewhat fragile. Some of the out-of-faction beasts give a LOT of flexibility. Waldgeists (Neverborn) and the Rogue Necro (Ressers) are two of the best in my opinion depending on what you need.

Personally I don't. To give the +1Ca it can't move, restricting the usage, and for Raspy I'd rather have the Wendigo who is a minion and casts Ice pillars.

Also keep in mind that if he cheats from his deck, he cheats randomly. He can't cheat from his hand again afterwards, he's stuck with the second card. You may attack a gremlin who flipped a 6 and he'll cheat and flip a 2. A gremlin might need a 7 but flips a 12, wasting that card. Plus many of the gremlins have low stats anyway. Gremlins are strong early with a very bad late game. The more damage you can do as quickly as possible, the quicker they lose their gusto. Try going as agressive as possible. If you're afraid of discarding your hand, dump your hand fast doing as much damage as you can before Somer can do that to you. Just don't let up. 4 wound gremlins go down very easily. I've yet to test this out, but Hoarcat Prides seem to me as stupidly powerful against gremlins. Gremlins have very low WP, Manipulative (plus if he wants to Two-card that, prepare to see him dumping 12s and 13s by accident while doing so). Gremlins do much of their damage with shooting: small target. Gremlins are mostly Ht1: Devour (just make sure to have a 12 or 13 of the right suit in your hand). Just be agressive (but don't overextend too much!) And aim for the scary ones (Master, Francois, etc). Anything that does blast damage or has a way of getting 4 damage will be good at popping the regular gremlins

Hmmm not a terrible idea. Maybe I can try that in Reconnoiter or schemes that don't favor Raspy. Ramos can get counterspell too so the things I said about that still apply

Really? I'm surprised. I've always thought that summoning 2-3 models with 4 wounds (coming on the board at 2-3 wounds) is an easy way for Levi to summon 2-3 abominations by shooting at them with his upgrade. Oops, sorry for the double post!

Occasionally, I have a hectic and sporadic schedule but next time I'm available (maybe this or next weekend, sometimes Wednesdays) I'll try to let you know. Keep in mind I've never even played Raspy though xD

I've never played against Levi, but in the event I ever go against someone who declares Outcasts, my list will look something like this (small changes depending on schemes) Rasputina, Armor of December, Cold Nights, Seize the Day - 6 SS pool Wendigo SnowStorm, Imbued Energies, Warding Runes Myranda, Imbued Energies December Acolyte Arcane Effigy Ice Gamin Ice Gamin Counterspell and Warding Runes means Levi needs to drop a soulstone every time he wants to shoot one of those targets. Seize the Day means I will hopefully go first as much as possible to activate Rasputina (or anything followed by companioning the Wendigo) and put up Ice pillars around Levi, cutting off his LoS. Raspy and Snowstorm will try to focus and shoot for blasts towards the waifs. The Myrandabus will similarly try to go after targets, or if I go first instead of activating Raspy I can charge her into Levi if I have a couple of high cards to ensure Levi dies. Two Ice Gamin to make sure I get the bonus +1 damage aura even if one dies. Arcane Effigy for buffing Raspy's damage. Everything tries to continue scheming in the meantime as well. December Acolyte does what he does and gives Raspy extra range, and also if close can strip the H2W and Armor from the node that A&D leaves behind when it dies. Luckily the Acolyte has 8 wounds so Levi either needs to drop 2 severe cards or use all 3 AP to kill him in a single activation. This is literally the best that I can think of. The list is also decent against anything else Outcasts can bring. Hamlin can't go against the blasting power, Viks will hopefully be gimped by Ice Pillars and blast damage, Von Shill will probably be the toughest matchup but Raspy can switch to a supporting role through paralysis and giving Armor +2 to targets, and even with immunity to blasts, severe 6+Burning 1 damage isn't bad. No matter what you end up taking, I cannot stress enough the helpfulness of Warding Runes. Our Henchmen are expensive and forcing Levi to stone for a suit or cheat every time he wants to shoot one of these high priority targets will definitely deter him from claiming large swings in power (Levi killing the Brass Arachnid turn 2 is better than killing Joss turn 2). Due to this, try not to take super expensive Enforcers like Howard, Mech Rider, or the Rail Golem. Its just too easy for Levi to kill turn 2/3 unless you block LoS.

If I hear Guild or Gremlins I immediately take some protection against shooting - especially Malifaux Raptors and a Cerberus or Howard to get up and assassinate the threat.

Anyone want a game in the next hour or two? Currently 4:15 Est

Anyone want a game in the next hour or two? Currently 4:15 Est