necroon

Because I can see an upgrade or a condition. Because the game governs how they are supposed to be tracked or represented. Because I can see them being attached and discarded or removed. Because I can see tokens on the table and because upgrades and conditions are stated as being public knowledge which is tracked (per Gaining Grounds). Sure if it is a condition someone could opt to use dry erase marker and sure the same individual could refuse to allow me to put my own tokens on the table "because this helps me if you don't mind" but odds are a game with that person would be about as confusing and misrible no matter what they played. It matters because typically when you look at a model to see if something has been done it's either a "yes or no" like with (0) actions or "Once per X" effects which are easy to commit to short term memory: Did it do the thing? Yes or No. But this is "Yes or no" to four different things under one ability. That's more to remember and in a crew with so many if/thens and moving pieces it's beyond the normal scope in a game that already has some of the more complex interactions between models.

I find this personally to be an incredible understatement. The amount of elevated foresight and lack of usage of in game tracking for actions available via Beacon is my biggest issue with him. I'd be fairly happy if Arcane Storm got a , maybe cache went down 1 or 2, and Sandeep used conditions or upgrades or something to track what was left for Beacon. I do strongly think that Beacon being (mostly) available to all models is a balance concern, if not today then for the future, and should, much in the way a lot of models interact with each other, have some further limitation for keyword and station as a continuation of observed healthy and prominent game design methodology. I still think he does what he does far too well, and have heard enough mumbling of good players in the Arcanist vein only not playing him because they have made the choice to play something else for non-strategic reasons (IE: I am sick of playing Sandeep so let's throw Marcus down) and reflecting on that being the wrong choice, but an increase in clean game state and easily tracked / noticeable information within the confides of the game would be a huge QOL (quality of life) boost for playing against Sandeep and in of itself, although not a pure solution to my balance concerns, enough to make the games more enjoyable while leading to possibly better and more sound gameplay. Having to keep track of someone else's available actions each turn through their ability for their crew is irritating. Maybe I'm the only one that lacks the mental aptitude to do so but I doubt it seeing as how most Sandeep players need their own sheet, themselves. It's just a really sloppy way to handle the mechanic, one that seemingly can be improved upon greatly to the benefit of the Sandeep player and the opponent, and very well may be magnifying the issue in my eyes and possibly the eyes of others, as well.

Again: I will just repeat this because I agree with it. This is/was the goal of that recommended statement. The goal was not because I like adding text to cards for no reason it was because the pool of "all the models" that can use beacon should perhaps not consist of "All the models". Your welcome to not have this opinion I am, however, done defending my opinion from you as I feel like I have made my points clearly enough and would rather not continue to do so as the discussion has become cyclical.

Or like how Collodi is Puppets / minions or Lucius is Guardsman/Mimics / minions. (Keyword) and (Station) limitations are hardly uncommon or unheard of. So then what's the point of arguing against it? But you said it won't change him being unpredictable. I quite literally don't understand how to separate these points from one another. I'm not trying to be difficult here but I don't understand what you are trying to express to me and I don't agree with what you are equating. I'll leave it at that as I'd rather not argue and don't really feel like much will come of our back and forth judging from past interactions other then "we clearly don't agree".

This explains it just fine so I'll just paste it here. I see plenty of Howard and Joss with Sandeep. This is a change that should be accompanied by other changes. Beacon (and other abilities or actions) being restricted by characteristic and/or station just seems good for game health and Minion would allow him to benefit from other/future models without specifically neutering his available hiring pools.

My preferred considerations in no particular order: Increase Beacon penalty to -2. Restrict Beacon to Academics, Gamen, and Minions. Id greatly like Beacon to use some sort of Conditions or Upgrades or something that others uses to track this sort of thing (Collodi and conditions, McCabe and Upgrades) but I'll concede to balance being more important. Hopefully in the future abilities like this can be more easily tracked using existing game state things like conditions and upgrades. Reduce cache by 2. Remove Student of All or require a soulstone to be discarded for it to be used. Perhaps have it only trigger when an action is used via Beacon targeting an enemy model: that in conjunction with other changes would seem alright. Add to Arcane Storm. I also really like @joediamond's suggestion about replacing impossible to wound with concentrated shielding. Good discussion points and good summary, @retnab.

Ooooooooh okay. Now I follow. Thanks for explaining.

I legitimately don't follow and would legitimately like to. But "whining" would be fine. I don't agree, as I sure you can guess. The purpose of making Sandeep less strong is to make him less strong. A Faction having internal balance issues is no reason to allow something not balanced into play against everyone else. I'd certainly like everything to be balanced against everything and internal faction balance to exist (I don't agree that Arcanists have an internal balance issue aside from Sandeep overshadowing other masters except maybe Marcus but that's not something I'd like to get into in this thread nor something that needs to be discussed) but if I have to pick one over the other it's overall game health. Note that I'd rather not pick and don't think the pick has to be made by anyone.

I have no idea what a "whinging" is so I can't say. "Complaining" would have been a perfectly neutral word. I don't think bringing a tool-box of "all the good things in game" will ever leave a master feeling underpowered unless said master can only do them with some small populated characteristics that only contain subpar models. The fact that some other Masters are worse off on the offenders lists by no means prevents a conversation from happening and it shouldn't. Would I rather them look at Sandeep or Nicodem right now? My answer is "yes" because it can be. I would not also limit his effectiveness solely to being better then other masters that have balance issues (in that they are bad) - When people are going to take you over Marcus a ton and in basically every scenario that speaks volumes in of itself. Arcanists boasts a powerful suite of incredibly good models and Masters. I don't see a ton of limitation to bad keywords like "Fey" or "Swampfiend" to limit interactions, I don't see a ton of double stuffed suits outside of summoning (example: Stat 6 TN 14), and I don't see a ton of buffs regulated by station. I see good strong stat lines, armor, and speed. Plus at this point they have a very decent number of Masters that can bring summoning to the table which is incredibly powerful even with limitations on use. If people leave Sandeep in droves and all flock to one other master that isn't because Sandeep should not have been adjusted: it's because people have a habit of downplaying effectiveness of anything that was better before or because Arcanists has an internal master balance issue that should not prevent balance changes happening for the good of the game. Balance problems should not be left problems because they may encourage other choices or bring other things to light. I imagine after a Sandeep adjustment people will bump over to Marcus which is an entirely different conversation all together.

Ah yeah I was more commenting in line with you then at you.... for what sense that may or may not make. Sorry about any confusion there!

I find that 12" and LOS of a HT 2 Model is pretty generous especially when Sandeep can place. This is more of a... mechanical template and commonality then a limiting factor by near any means.

What is the soul stone cost of the minion? What else does the Minion do? What TN? Suit baked in? Suit required? There is a lot of other things to consider then "Station" and "CA Value". Not sure the language is necessary here, mate, but I certainly would not be were that the case as my entire point was that I believed the -1 CA Penalty is insufficient. -2 is a good step and has precedent. -2 and a suit requirement or something about triggers is even better.

You are drastically underpricing what Beacon borrows. It doesn't matter how many actions are available when the ones that are are: - A (0) 6" place (academics and minions only) - A push with a heal trigger - A non 10" 2/4/5 - A (0) interact that has a trigger for being used engaged and another one for pushing before the interact. Beacon does not have a balanced restriction on it's usage. -1 CA means you need a 6+ to do them or an opposed flip with you using a stat 5 (in the case of Arcane Storm): that's what it means and aside from Arcane Storm the actual CA value is totally meaningless. If your so against the -1 beacon penalty being increased fine: let's just up all the TNs by 1 or 2 and call it a day. All of the those are amazingly powerful utility options. It only being those 4 is absolutely no reason to not balance it accordingly; Doppleganger and Changelings and Anything with Magical Extension can't even hope to use a 6to push a friendly model 6" and then heal 2 WDs! Places, pushes, heals, non-randomizing cover ignoring CA actions, and scheme marker placement are all incredibly powerful utility tech and the kind of things that win games. If all he did was that it would be fine but it's not. He summons (a whole other can of issues), does all the beacon things himself, is way to beefy (I'm sorry but Arcane Shield and Impossible to wound with his stat line and a self heal is hardly not tanky).... He's basically fast every turn by means of an out of activation AP and Arcane Storm isn't the greatest damage wise but it's far from being a bad attack.

No I said it was uncommon not @radak23. Pile on me - Every Arcanist master that isn't Sandeep rocking a 7 does very little to quell any logical or reasonable argument. Some of these are limited by other factors or not opposed duels. So I am to take away from this point that.... Sandeep is bad because his CAs are not 7's? Hardly. Aside from his attack action none of these values are opposed and there is little anyone can do to stop them from happening aside from generic suggestions like "Try and drain their hand" which is a basic part of playing Malifaux, anyways. Beyond correcting me for the sake of accuracy please explain what exactly I am supposed to take away from this? That his Beacon is not powerful because one action it permits is an opposed duel and the rest aren't so nobody can really stop you from those? That Sandeep himself is hampered by being a 4 AP Master that lets the crew within 12" and LOS make use of places and pushes and scheme marker placing? That him summoning a plus flip bubble that is also an activation that aren't limited by key-words or stations is somehow undermined by Sandeep himself needing a 5+ for his actions and only having a CA6 on his non-projectile action CA action with the possibility of a [+] damage flip trigger? I'm just not seeing how any of this actually hinders you it only could have gone from Worse to Even Worse.

Yeah I was editing that back. My brain was yelling "Reduces below 1" and my fingers were trying to type something different. I know full well how much that min 0 hurts when combined with armor +1 from a steamfitter, the ability to tell off severes, and impossible to wound 😅 That's all powerful. Placing scheme markers: powerful. Doing it while engaged: Powerful. Pushing: owerful. CA7 is high - not common. Sure some things are higher but CA 7 is not a norm for actions. Aside from the attack action the CAs only matter in that you need 6's to do a really strong thing and in some cases a suit makes that strong thing stronger. Asura Rotten is probably not the best aiming point for a validation of balance.

Requiring LOS is something all summoners work with. Getting a push with a 6+ but needing a mask to place a scheme marker if engaged at the end of said push is hardly a claim of balance. I disagree that -1 CA to do some of the best things in Malifaux is fair. The "cons" of the summons are not limitations. They are vastly inferior to what you are getting for them: a powerful thing you chose and an activation. Because Obey is during one model's activation. I would call having damage reduced to a minimum of 0, a minus on all damage flips, not being able to have damage cheated on you, a decent WD stat, not being DF 4, and a heal quite incredible indeed. This still gives you amazing things you can do with low cards. You are making a choice when you have good cards and getting a good use out of cards that would otherwise be sapped for discard effects by your opponent or defensive stance or something. Having options is always superior to not having them And everything they do they do with conditions or upgrades for tracking. Nobody needs to break out the scrap paper to figure out what is happening turn over turn.

I think Sandeep is overly effective and playing against him is an overly complicated and frustrating experience. My reasoning on this is as follows: In a typical game of Malifaux you look at your opponent's models and cards. You look at the actions they can take and when they can take them. Perhaps the crew is new to you and you study them a bit and eve misread a few. If you are familiar with the models you know what they can do and draw upon that knowledge as you alternate your activation and strategically plan what your models do. Summoners make this a little harder but most of them have a drawback: Either they can only make their model within a certain range of a certain place (in the case of summoning off a scrap or corpse marker) or have a model summoned with reduced effectiveness or a limitation imposed on it's gameplay influence (in the case of Dreamer or Assami). Some models can even take another model's actions like the Doppelganger, Changelings, or any model with Magical extension however they often suffer reduced effectiveness for this (See Doppleganger's Fists, Changelings stat 4, and both their inability to declare triggers). Sandeep's limitation on this is once per turn per action that Beacon allows and a slight reduction in stat (-1) and a very generous range from Sandeep. Models must meet a target number that require unsuited 6+s for some of the most powerful effects in the game: Places, non projectile ranged ca actions, pushes, etc. This causes the opponent to consistently track turn over turn this action pool of incredible effectiveness. Now, in addition, Sandeep can summon models that are modified in the way the function and often powerfully suited for a particular task including generating an aura that gives s to attack flips. In addition Sandeep and his coveted mages boast a damage reduction of 1 (to a minimum of zero) that stacks with armor and only applies until the model activates requiring additional mental tracking (Note to how Sandeep doesn't necessarily even need to activate to support his crew with proper preparation), and The Mage's upgrades and how the wards on which mages interact with what model. This is an absurd level of increased mental tracking for any opponent to be expected to do for their opponents stuff and why Conditions are a thing to begin with; Sure I could take a piece of scrap paper with me, I often have them on hand in tournaments just for Sandeep match-ups and I know it's not just me, either: Most players using him have to check off boxes for what's been used every turn, but nobody has to do that for anything I bring and I certainly don't need it for anything else so how is that okay? It also makes the process the opponent needs to go for to plan their own actions more complex then it would be against any other crew. Put all this on a Master with an incredible suite of defensive abilities, the ability to gain armor +1, a crew that can easily make use of a number of resources (Including having a place to chuck low cards - I see the crew's "Discard a card to..." mechanics proposed as a weakness but I strongly disagree that tossing a 2 to power anything is a weakness. Sure sometimes you'll have to make a choice but..... sometimes. Most crews are doing that all the time), and a Master that gets a 4th AP every turn..... I try not to label a lot of things as "overpowered" or "negative play experiences" but I can safely say I have never had a game against Sandeep that felt enjoyable given that everything is not only complicated and hard to track but also extremely effective: perhaps too effective. I hope an errata, preferably to beacon, is on the horizon. My local meta is largely Arcanist players and I can certainly say playing Sandeep 3 times a week in casual play and 1-3 times every tournament I go to has done a fantastic job of sapping my desire to play Malifaux at all: far more then OG Levi, Rat-Joy, or even any of the late 1.0 silliness.

Understandable. I didn't check for how many of each card would be included as I had assumed they'd have multiples of things that came in multiples. That's for sure absolutely on me but from an ordering perspective. Going forward, I know I'll have to check the bundles, check my cards, see how many I have from purchasing the item, manually add the difference, and repeat for anything that isn't rare. Hardly problematic but also hardly convenient by any means. The Wargame Vault isn't exactly the worlds most responsive website: On any browser or computer I've used adding items to the cart takes a few seconds (same for Drivethru RPG). Doing a group order for just errata bundles and a few replacement cards is fine but cherry picked extras, too... ugh. I'm not getting the torches and pitchforks ready here or anything - Just providing feedback on my personal experiences. As for the descriptions I'm not able to find what I was looking at before. the "This special bundle product contains the following titles" is and was fine but the item description itself has been replaced by a bunch of parentheses on some items and is blank on others. Can write this off as user error.

Just to provide some feedback from the ordering / receiving perspective: Cards printed and cut nicely (no off-size or off centered cuts, good quality material, not damaged) and correctly reflected the most recent errata. Errata package descriptions were incorrect (Missing cards in the descriptions - not the physical cards). Cards were not packaged together if they were from an Errata bundle. Not a huge deal but I did have to spend some time sorting them as I had organized a local player basis order. I assume they were packaged by SKU and there is literally nothing anyone is going to be able to do to change that. It would have been preferred to receive a number of cards for each errata equal to how they come in box/blister. Was odd to get 3 of each student but only one Bunraku, for example.

Not all men are born from greatness. Some come from simple humble beginnings. Others that came from simple humble beginnings are then killed and turned into horrific fusions of metal and flesh and don't accomplish much with their lives. The Amesbury Malifaux Players are pleased to present a Junkyard style tournament for people with too many models, too much free time, and dark tragic back stories (completely optional). Location 113B Main St, Amesbury, MA 01913 Date Saturday March 24th Schedule 11:00am – 11:30am Check In 11:30am – 2:00pm Round One 2:00pm – 2:30pm Break 2:30pm – 5:00pm Round Two 5:00pm – 5:30pm Break 5:30pm – 8:00pm Round Three Entry Fee 10 dollars - All entry fees go towards prize support. Special Rules Each player will create a fixed 50 soul-stone crew. This crew will be played by their opponents against them rounds 1 and 2 and they will play it themselves round 3. You may submit your fixed crew for a painting contest between rounds 1 and 2. You will be judged not only on the overall quality of the models but also any theme for the crew, as well. You will be judged by your peers! A crew may not have unspent points that would cause them to have soulstones in excess of the 7 stones allowed by the maximum cache. If a 0 point model is available to the crew at least one of each said model must be hired as long as you can legally do so. This means you must take both Victorias, at least one hollow waif with Levi (unless you hire another totem), and the hungering darkness with Lynch (unless you hire another totem). All Crews must be Master Led (Note that Wrath isn't a master) Scheme and Strategy Pools will be using Gaining Grounds 2018. The order of the Strategies used will be shuffled however we will be using the specified ones in rotation for March. Round times will be extended by 30 minutes to help compensate for a lack of knowledge. Be mindful that you may not finish your matches: that's okay! Do your best to keep things moving for both yourself and your opponent. Player Responsibility Please be careful when handling miniatures owned by other people as to avoid spills and thrills. The owner of the crew will likely move the models and any associated cards to the next table between matches. You are greatly encouraged to think of a clever theme or name for your crew (Which will be taken into consideration for a paining contest). If you are bringing a model capable of summoning please provide at least 3 of each model that can be summoned (Or up to its rare value if it has one). Proxies or Empty labeled bases are acceptable as stand-ins for summons to make things easy for everyone involved. I will have plenty of extra blank bases on hand.

And thus shall The Great Tribble Hunt commence in the world of The Other Side!

Dropping my two Scrip without a ton of insight as to the exact problem at hand: I would say that the two strengths in the Neverborn faction are Control and Action Economy. To elaborate on this: a lot of set-ups in Neverborn don't work off of very many models. Model A may do a thing to disrupt what your opponent is doing and Model B may empower Model A to do something it already does a bit better but you won't see a lot of 3+ model combinations. Neverborn models are largely independent. They do what they do and tend to do it better when they aren't doing something that works against what they are trying to do: You don't want to have a Stitched Together toss up it's creepy fog activating early and mess up your Changeling's Lovelace shot later in the turn, for example, or throw haz terrain where it will be in the way of another model moving in. Our control is costly. We have TNs for our tricks, usually with a 5 to 7+ and a suit requirement (one needed on the flip, one on the initial stat) that requires careful resource management. Pick your tricks and learn their timing. Learn when to let the super neat thing go in favor of an attack flip. Tricks are cool but everything you do needs to equate to VP: If you are whooshing around the board making terrain and swapping models with tangle shadows and all that good stuff it doesn't matter if that gets you zero VP at the end of the turn. Always have a plan B and C, as well. If you really need to have a certain trick pay off and can't get your control hand to allocate those resources expect it to fail and have it be a boon, a shortcut, if it happens. Identify what across the table shuts down your control and shut it down, first. Condition removal, counterspell, or things that can hinder your triggers are good primary targets. Action Economy: This is where we have a lot of game. Pounce, Suprise!, Mimic, Obey (and Obey-like things), and whatever the Wisp does (The name escapes me) seem to be the core of my crews these days. Models taking other models' actions keeps your options open, artificially expands your areas of influence, and keeps your opponent guessing at your angles and on the back foot. Remember that at the end of the day tricks and action economy both need a strong core crew that gets the job done. Taking a bunch of changelings and the doppelganger with only one model that actually has a good attack is a waste. Taking a bunch of control heavy models without any workhorses is a mistake. I look to Graves, Lilitu, The Tooth, The Thorn, Nekima / Lovelace / Hannah, Siliruds, Trappers, and Stitched Together to form the core of a lot of my crews because the get the job done. At the end of the game (1) Walk and (1) Interact are probably the strongest actions in your arsenal so never forget them.

Happy with these. The only standouts for me are Spawn Mother, Vasalisa, and Bad JuJu. Where Spawn Mother and Vasalisa are just a tad too expensive for what they do (or try to do) but they may at least make it back into my case for casual games. Bad JuJu would be perfect if he was able to get unimpeded somehow: Either as a 0, added to his card, or added to Eternal Fiend. Overall quite pleased with not only NB but the adjustments on the whole (Keeping in mind that Books 1 and 2 were the focal point). Good job keeping it real, Wyrd. 2018 is looking to be a good year to 'Faux!

I will be somewhat disappointed if they do not gain the ability to compare the weight of a potential spell-caster in question to a waterfowl. Perhaps possible with the way the magic works

I want to rub it's tummy with the same expectations I have for doing so with most cats I have owned. Sans my current cat - he loves belly rubs.