Turbodog

Actually in both the examples given, the model with slow to die has it's state checked at the end of the slow to die before proceeding back into the action. The target model does not have its state checked (this is why the executioner example gets so tricky). So I don't think Seamus has his state checked until when I indicated - after the DM is checked and dies at the very end of slow to die. It's this same timing that allows an executioner to live while the other dies. But it's late and I'm tired. I might have this wrong.

Edit: Oh, using them for cheap scrap. Isn't a large steampunk arachnid still more cost effective for scrap?

Wait, Seamus should live, yes? Seamus with 1 wound hits DM killing him DM Slow to Die activates Marshall hits Seamus reducing him to 0 wds STD complete, check state of DM. DM dies. Seamus then heals wds (up from 0) and draws a card. Check state of Seamus - Seamus is alive. This seems to be similar to what is happening to executioner 1 in the example.

Thanks to those that answered so far. I'm glad to know this is indeed how these all work. (As for Pandora interactions...that's for another thread. This is Seamus and crews he can take vs. Guild crews. I realize the box opening...well...opens up a "can" for some...) Great catch by the way on Seamus being living so Fear not Death doesn't help vs. him, Kadeton! I missed that one. It will be so counter-intuitive to those using these models for the first time. Here's a hypothetical conversation: Newbie: My Death Marshall has "Fear not Death" so that makes him better vs. terrifying, right? Me: No. Newbie: Oh, well when Molly takes out Phillip's undead head and makes my Marshalls take morale duels, they can use it then right, because they "Fear not Death"? Me: No. They run away like a pansies, just like all other guild models. They don't get that bonus there, either. Newbie: Oh, so what exactly do my Death Marshalls "Fear not"? Me: Really they just "Fear not some spells that undead models may be casting at me"...like Lure. Frustrated Newbie: So, you mean to tell me that "Fear not Death" doesn't help me for any of these duels when there's a chance I might run away??? Me: That's about right...now here's what you CAN do about Seamus with your guild crew...

When playing guild against a Seamus crew there are a lot of WP duels that come up which may or may not be affected by talents. I just got Seamus and want to make sure I’m doing these WP duels correctly when I play him. 1st Type: Rst: WP spells For any of these spells (such as Undead Psychosis, Crave Punishment, Lure, etc. – there are a LOT of them) the guild model is a defender making a WP duel. As such, abilities like Stubborn or Fear Not Death will give them a bonus to their WP stat for their resist flip. Immune to Influence models are not affected by any of these spells. Ryle is not affected by any of these spells due to Breach Psychosis. Note: If the Hanged are with Seamus and use Hangman’s Knot or Whisper from Beyond spells, you may not use Stubborn or Fear Not Death due to the Hanged’s Unrelenting Terror ability. Unrelenting Terror does not prevent using Immune to Influence. 2nd Type: Trigger WP Effects For Seamus’ Excessive Bleeding or Sybelle’s Rough Trade triggers, they place an effect on a model which forces it to make a WP-># duel at some time in the future. During those simple duels, the model is not a defender, so Stubborn, Fear not Death, and Immune to Influence do not work. Ryle’s Breach Psychosis still allows him to ignore the effects of these triggers (Ryle basically ignores everything in this post except Anathema and the Dead Doxy ability that can’t be ignored). 3rd Type: Forcing enemies to take WP duels as part of an effect Example 1: When Sybelle uses Shriek, an additional effect is that if the model is living, it must make a WP->11 Morale Duel after suffering damage. My current thinking: The spell is a WP resist spell, so the resist flip is affected by Stubborn, Fear not Death, etc. But the simple Morale duel generated as an effect is the model being forced to act in a certain way. Put another way, since its stat is before the arrow, it’s not a defender in a WP-># flip. So the WP->11 Morale Duel is not affected by Stubborn or Fear not Death. Example 2: Molly’s Reveal Phillip and the Hanged’s Last Words are actions that generate a pulse that immediately forces a WP-># Morale Duel of all models in range. Using the same logic as above, models are not considered defenders in this duel as it is a simple duel that they are being forced to make. Stubborn, Fear not Death, and Immune to Influence will not help. (Also, the Hanged’s Unrelenting Terror does not come into play with this ability because a pulse is not a targeted ability). Example 3: The Hanged’s Horrible End ability says that all living models within 8” of a defender killed by the Hanged must make a WP->10 duel or fall back. I’m applying the same logic as above to this. This duel is not affected by Stubborn, Fear not Death, or Immune to Influence. Also, the Hanged’s Unrelenting Terror does not come into play as these models were not targeted by the hanged. Example 4: The Hanged’s Condemned Whisper weapon talent states that models damaged by this weapon make a WP->11 duel or fall back. Interestingly, this is a simple WP duel, not a morale duel, so it will affect things normally immune to morale duels (constructs, undead, spirits, frozen heart). If the logic is correct above, the guild models in question aren’t defenders for this either – as it is a separately generated simple duel, so Immune to Influence won’t protect from it, and Stubborn and Fear not Death do not help. 4th Type: Terrifying I feel most comfortable with this as it has been discussed at length on these boards. Models aren’t defenders when taking terrifying tests, so Immune to Influence, Stubborn, and Fear not Death do not apply. Also, terrifying tests are a type of morale duel, so models immune to morale duels are immune to the effects of terrifying. Also, only living models take terrifying tests to begin with, so non-living models such as soulless, constructs, etc. NEVER take terrifying tests, even if their immunity is stripped away. Also, terrifying models don’t take terrifying tests. And finally, Anathema ability essentially makes all models (not just living ones) take terrifying tests. 5th Type: Doxy Defense Models must pass a WP -> # test to target a Dead Doxy with a ranged attack. All models take this (as it can’t be ignored) and they are not defenders when they take it , so Stubborn and Fear not Death do not apply. 6th Type: Molly’s Pitiful Pitiful forces models to make a WP->WP duel before engaging the model. In this case, the acting model is the first WP and Molly is the second WP listed. Molly is the defender, so the attacker can’t use Stubborn, Fear not Death etc. to help in this duel. Interestingly this is the ONLY opposed WP duel in my Seamus crew, so it’s the only one Sue’s ability helps with. None of the above WP duels are opposed duels. 7th Type: Death Marshalls! (Cuz they're some of the guild models fighting Seamus!) Pine box is a WP resist spell, so that part is affected by Immune to Influence etc. But part of its effect is to force the model captured to make a WP->WP duel with the Death Marshall to try to escape. For this duel, the boxed model is the first WP and the attacker, and the Marshall is the second WP and the defender. So the boxed model can’t use Immune to Influence to autopass this duel, nor can it use things like stubborn to help boost its WP. What’s better is that the Death Marshall gets to add his bonus to WP due to Fear not Death if it is undead that is boxed because he’s the defender in this opposed duel! Thanks for reading all that. I know it’s long. My question is: So did I get this all right?

I vote for Sue, the man in black himself.

Just to clarify for point #1... The model was not in terrifying effect's range (1" melee for Seamus) Seamus casts The Face of Death, which in addition to increasing his terrifying number, has the range of Aura 4. The model is now suddenly within the aura of a terrifying effect. But this is not what bullet point #3 is talking about on page 57 of the rule book where a model must take the check if it is "entering a terrifying effects range and do not have flight or float ability" - so there is no check made when the spell is cast? Just trying to clarify. -Turbodog

Quick, easy one... Seamus has a model 3" from him. He spends a 1 action to cast "the face of death" which is a 4" aura that says "terrifying-->14. This replaces this models terrifying--> 12 ability". Does the enemy model at 3" immediately do a WP check for suddenly being in the terrifying area? Or does it not check until it activates while within the aura (or both?). Also if a model within 1" already passed Seamus' terrifying -->12 before he activates, does it need to recheck again (at the higher terrifying --> 14 value) if Seamus casts this spell later that turn?

Just ran my first 35 SS Levi list. I tried: Levi - 0 SS pool Canine Remains Rusty Alice 4x Steampunk Abominations Ashes and Dust Looks goofy on paper like this, but don't knock it til you try it. It worked extremely well for my terrain (quarantine zone) and strategy (shared line in sand).

A Desolation Engine with 1 Wd hits an Electrical Creation with the trigger: Consuming Touch: After Damaging Defending model with a Entropy Claws strike, heal this model 1 Wd for each Wd it inflicted on defender. The EC has 2 Wds left prior to the hit, so it will die from the 3 Dg this hit will do. EC has the ability: Unstable: When this model is killed, it generates a ()2 that inflicts 2 Dg before being removed from play. So what happens? A) Engine healing resolved first, healing it only 1 Wd, then it takes 2 Dg from Unstable. Net result, Des Engine has 2 Wds. Unstable does 2 Dg to Engine, giving it 3 Wds, then it heals back 2 Wds due to Consuming Touch. Net result - Des Engine has 1 Wd. C) Something else I didn't think of... -Turbodog Thanks in advance

So, I'm looking at expanding into a pure guardsman list. I'm looking at the very slow wk 3 guild guard captain and I'm considering the following: Move up a guild guard. Cast Menace from the captain on the guild guard so that he can move 4" instead of 3. Then do that again. Effectively this way he can keep better pace in the early game when I'm not using his AP for other stuff anyway. So my questions are: 1) Can I do this? Is it a good idea...menacing my own units? and 2) Once a unit is menaced, what happens if someone casts lure on it? Does menace make lure ineffective? Or obey? Thanks, Turbodog

No worries, ICleadpeople. First time up against any Book 2 master usually equals stumped...you are in good company. Perdita has one of the easiest times against Hoffman. The reason is Spellbreaker. You may have noticed, that Hoffman had to do a bunch of actions (casting protect, possibly cheating for the guardian, assimilating, casting with Hoffman, possibly totem). Turn one involves an investment that is easy, but time and AP consuming, in order to set up the protect chain in the first place. It's worth it because protect then is an effect that sits on the model and doesn't leave like normal at the end closing phase. Enter Spellbreaker from Perdita. One spellbreaker from Perdita can strip that protect effect off several models (with no resist). No longer is there a protect chain and if Hoffman wants it back, he needs to waste precious AP to do it. Ortegas, in general, need this help, because with all the armor around a Hoffman crew, the Ortegas won't do much damage before getting locked up in melee. There's no good way around that...guild is poor vs. armor (excepting a few book 3/4 models). So consider bringing someone of your own that can hang in melee or can at least act as a speed bump. Be up on your Francisco counter charge tactics. Without protect, Hoffman's peacekeeper isn't so different from Zoriada's Mature Nephilim. Handle it the same way. Also, as most anti-Hoffman players know, moving the models is the way to go. As has been pointed out, Lure type options don't work due to immune to influence. So look for things that DRAG or TOSS or otherwise generate push effects. Hoffman's models have low Df, so are easy to hit so this works well. Mercenaries can help with this along with some guild models like warden, peacekeeper, hunter, etc. The Hoff-Ball is strong, so long as all those critical distances work out for his abilities. Move things even 2-3 inches the wrong directions and it plays quiet havoc with Hoffman and he'll have to (once again) waste alot of AP fixing it.

Probably not very helpful, but here's some fuel for the fire... In the case of magic spells, the world does not work the same was as for other flips. The complete cast is made, including targeting, flipping, cheating, ss, declaring casting triggers. All of this is RESOLVED, including paying AR for spells. THEN (often) a resist flip is called for - which may include a trigger. For reflect magic, the "original defender" doesn't have to cast the spell again, pay any AR, flip against any CC. It seems this trigger just sends the effects of the spell to another model. After all, its not like anyone thinks that Levi won't get his own trigger to draw a card for successfully casting this spell, have it reflected by the witchling, fizzle due to this goofy targeting enemy business, and then have to PUT BACK the card on top of the deck because "I guess it didn't cast after all!" So I guess that puts me in the frame of mind to say levi loses wounds and gaki get sacrificed. -Turbodog

Just wanted to chime in. I have had this same issue playing Hoffman as to not understanding how to interpret Dampening for a variety of situations. I also would like to see Dampening clarified/errated on the next possible FAQ pass, since it makes him so hard to play without knowing... -Turbodog

Really, REALLY not useful to do this. You'd have two zero actions - one of which can't be assimilate! It's similar to how if a model has melee expert (+1) and gains melee master (+2) it only has 2 extra melee attacks, not 3. They don't stack - the bigger one effectively overwrites. This is an exception to the "different named abilities do stack" rule of thumb. Effectively you do this: Activate Hoffman and you have two zero actions for the activation. (Instinctual +1) Use one of those on assimilate to get SA. Since you already had instinctual, this adds only one more zero action to Hoffman. Or to put it another way, your "pool" of AP is counted as having 3 zero actions total instead of 2. But you just used one, so your at two zero actions (same as when you started) And unlike when you started, you've now used assimilate and since they must be DIFFERENT zero actions, you can't assimilate again. Net gain...nothing. Net loss - can't use assimilate for your remaining zero actions.

As others have stated, going just Ortega's against rezzers is going to feel weak for the reasons stated. They really need to expand out further and take some other guild options (which make them very good). As to the concerns of fluffiness - Abuela Ortega has an ability to give one non-unique living model the Family characteristic called Shotgun Wedding. This may allow you to handwave and say things like: see that witchling stalker? It's really an ortega! I've already heard some interesting thoughts of shotgun wedding for Miss Terious (death marshall) to represent the Ortega that grew up and went to join the death marshalls! As stated, I do think Guild Hounds as just hunting dogs for anyone are a great add - and they really do help with the low number of models the Ortegas are faced with. They also synergize well. Exorcist can be nice too, as he's made to help the rest of the crew deal with undead and spirits (and others) - just watch out for the Rogue Necromancy which he is surprisingly soft against. Also consider constructs. Particularly the Watcher - as it not only is quick moving for grabbing objectives and cheap for helping with activations, but it can take away cover making the rest of the ortegas (sans Nino) much better at what they do best. But as you can see, all the options i mention do not involve models with the last name Ortega. =)

Outcast Model 6 SS "Ma Dunder" Soulless Wk/Cg 4/- Wp 7 Ca 6 mask Df 3 Wd 3 Abilities: Harmless Shambling Slow to Die Matron in Waiting: When this model dies, summon a Hollow Waif into base contact before removing the model. No other model may be summoned as a result of this model dying. Actions: (0) Kill Ma Dunder Spells: (1) Tap Soul CC: 10 crow Rst: Wp Rg: 6 Target's controller discards 1 control card. (1) Open the Maw CC: 16 mask Rst: - Rg: - This spell may only be cast as a slow to die action. Place a 50 mm "Maw of Despair" marker in base contact with this model. At the start of each activation phase, flip a card. If the card is a crow or tome, place one steampunk abomination in base contact with the Maw of Despair. Fluff: Elise Dunder was a beautiful young bride when she first met the wily Leveticus. She was seduced by him which eventually lead to an affair well after her marriage. Little did she know that Leveticus was courting her not to be his mate, but simply to be another Hollow Waif. She left her husband and now her transformation is nearly complete - she only awaits the final step...death. Leveticus has been using her to carry another of his rather ingenious discoveries, the Statue of Maw. This statue, when the correct rites are spoken above it, opens a pit of darkness leading to damnation. And from this pit pours forth the steampunk abominations of Leveticus' past. Game Feel Notes: Trying to give Leveticus a nice, fluffy, mid range SS model that will also allow him to generate the second Hollow Waif easily - thus eliminating the need to always take a canine remains. BUT taking canine remains is still viable due to SS cost. In return for higher cost, model has a nifty trick (alternate means of slow steampunk abomination generation)

Guild Pathfinder intrigues me. Some more specific questions your response has brought up: 1) He's got the guardsman trait? Yay, more guardsmen! 2) He's like the Freikorp Trapper? So he has... a) Armor, Magic Resistance, and Immune to blasts/pulses? Scout c) Can give scout to others in a pulse d) Hunter e) Auto-trigger to push after shooting ...or is he not really like the Freikorp hunter and doesn't actually have any of these. ? Finally, is the musket 16" range or less? I'm guessing less as you called it out as different.

Been curious on the new Guild Trapper and Clockwork Traps minions. Any spoilers on these yet?

2 Questions: Does the Ironman Suit Freikorp have the construct trait? I assume he is a mercenary - but are there any other rules Hoffman needs to know about regarding hiring him? (ala he's more expensive than normal...etc)

I have a question (on this topic) about our new master of dismounting... I'm assuming he's a single model on a 50 mm base when he is on his horse like the other riders. When he dismounts, will he have a separate 30 mm base model to replace to represent him (meaning you get 2 models for him when you buy him - likewise represented by two cards) or does it work some other way? Likewise, if he chooses to dismount, does his horse get a separate model?

I keep seeing people mention taking multiple riflemen to ensure they can keep companion activating. If their in a group with Abuela and Family members, and she gives them Companion Family via shotgun wedding...then can't just one keep "simultaneously activating" with ortegas?

A just for fun list? Pony Rides for Everyone! (or I wanna be "master of the riders" just like Leveticus) 30 SS List Hoffman Mechanical Toolkit (4 SS) Pale Rider (9 SS) Mechanical Rider (9 SS) Guardian (7 SS) 1 SS left over for Hoffman to use 35 SS varient could include a pair of Watchers and no SS left extra.

I'm actually very happy if this isn't a morale duel. The model has a different action that specifically generates a morale duel. And it's nice for an expensive (8 point) model to have something it can do against models that are normally immune to influence/terrifying/morale duels.

It's pretty huge for the games I play if Immune to Influence won't work on this and the model will have to take the duel. We tend to have alot of immune to influence models in our particular playgroup (between horsemen and guild constructs and flesh constructs.) I can see the argument and truthfully most things I'm used to seeing listed as WP -> # are not things that immune to influence works against, but I want to be sure before we play.