Skunkdog

Is there any love for this thread from someone at the Rules Marshal thread. I know threads can get long and fatigue can set in, but the fundamental question posed by this thread still needs some attention... ---------- Post added at 06:20 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:19 PM ---------- er Rules Marshal level I meant...

All, As the Original Poster... 1. Regarding Pagan Wolfes most recent post. I agree that "within" could use slight clarification, but I think most everybody (including Pagan Wolfe) would lean towards the bottom diagram as being the cleaner interpretation... The math major in me can't get past the fact that a models base edge could be considered to be an inclusive or exclusive boundary. 2. That said just wanted to try to steer the post back towards better defining the term "originating". If there are any Rules Marshals that have taken the time to digest this thread... that is what we mostly need clarification on to deal with the original question... we understand if you are internally deliberating... give us a signal if you can that this is being considered... 3. On a side note, and I have stated this in other posts. Malifaux is a wonderful game. 95%(guesstimating) of the interactions that occur in this game are pretty much controversy free. Of the remaing 5%, I would say 90% of the issues that come up can be resolved by reading the existing rules and carefully parsing the text on the cards. It is those few remaining interactions that are poorly supported by the rule book/stat cards. Many times I think this is due to sloppy wording on the stat cards and/or terms that have multiple valid interpretations. "Originating" is the operative term in this latest case that I find to be ill-defined.

So I see two distinct possibilities for originating. Distance Only Dampening Field is only concerned with distance of the originating source. So any already active aura gets canceled while it is affect. This would mean enemy models would have aura canceled when they moved in range, and any aura's Hoffman put up during his own activation would become canceled. or Distance and Temporal Distance is always going to apply to the ability strictly based on the "within 3 inches", but originating could have a temporal component, which is a legitimate interpretation also. This would come with its own set of pros and cons. Hoffman could put up beneficial auras for himself, but enemy models would be free to generate debuffing auras while outside the range, and then move into the dampening field without having them shut off... The more I think about, there are postives and negatives for both interpretations for both Hoffman and his opponents, but it certainly has huge implications for how he would be played. 100% agree with last poster, after having thought about this all day, it is originating that needs to have a firmer game definition....

the last couple of posts high light a problem with the word originate. Some interpret to only have distance conotation... other interpret it to have a temporal conotation... others might believe it is both distance and temporal... an example that might make the distance/temporal angle clear is this... Suppose an enemy model is 10 inches away, and has some (0) action that throws up a 3" aura. In temporal terms, the aura "originated" 10 inches away from Hoffman, and thus goes off... Now if this models charges such that its base is within 3" of Hoffman... is the aura still in the process of originating?, or is an already established aura immune from dampening field? A more precise definition of originating is required... one that is not contained in the rules or the made clear by the card... BTW, if you find that original ruling, cuold you post a link to it... I searched and found nothing on dampening field clarifications...

The Godlyness, The discussion has meandered a bit... So consider the following scenario: A. Hoffman activates, dampening field shuts off B. Hoffman (0) assimilates the Steamborg Executioners (1) Vent Steam (vent steam produces 4" aura that counts as obscuring) C. Hoffman uses Vent Steam and a 4" aura now radiates with Hoffman as its center D. Hoffman does whatever with rest of AP E. Hoffman end his activation, dampening field turns back on The specific question is does dampening field cancel the aura that is being produced by Hoffman himself... For the record, I believe it does... but I was trying to confirm (and I am the Hoffman player, so not doing myself any favors here ) If you read through the full thread there are people that believe both ways Some believe that the aura lasts until the Resolve Effects stage at the end of the turn. Others believe that the aura gets canceled by dampening field as soon as Hoffman's activation ends. My personal gaming group has people on both sides of the argument. ---------- Post added at 02:58 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:01 PM ---------- So just to add to the matter I see where people are getting their ideas from I was not initially aware of this, but the PullMyFinger tactica (which I realise is not an authoritative source, nonetheless, many people use it) http://pullmyfinger.wikispaces.com/C.+Hoffman specifically mentions the exact situation I refered to in the preceding post (scroll down to the minions section and reference the Steamborg Executioner). Since this a widely consumed site as far as I am aware, I can see how many people might assume without critically evaluating that the combination is legitimate.

Sorry. A few things... Regarding "Maintain Machines"... It specifically states "other constructs", So Hoffman can not choose to ignore his own dampening field. I believe his Mechanical Attendant also has the "Maintain Machines" talent, so Hoffman can choose to ignore his talents based on the totems applying his "Maintain Machines". Regarding applying "within" consistently. I 100% agree with that. So maybe this is what needs answering. Is a model considered within "X inches" of itself, or looked at another way, is the edge of a models base an inclusive boundary or an exclusive boundary. Certainly if an enemy model is base to base with Hoffman and the enemy pops an aura, dampening field prevents that. If Hoffman is base to base with an enemy models and pops an aura, he can do that on his turn for sure, but when it is not his turn does that shared boundary between Hoffman and he enemy consistute "within" from the perspective of Hoffman. Also I am really fine with this either way. It came up in a game last night. I was playing Hoffman/Levi, my opponent Lillith/McMourning (yes I know this is an illegal pairing, we bend the brawl rules a bit on occasion when we have 4 players and limited crew selection) I was actually in favor of Hoffman not being able to upkeep aura that he initiated when his activation was over (even though this would have benefited me), but we discussed it for a while, and realized nothing we found in the rules was really clear about the matter. ---------- Post added at 11:45 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:28 AM ---------- So just to be 100 clear, I have the card in front of me for Hoffman... Maintain Machines: Other friendly constructs within 6" may choose to ignore any of their listed abilities Empowered: This model receives +1Ca up to a maximum of +5 for each other friendly Construct within 4" Dampening: No (Blast) may be placed and no (aura) or (pulse) effects may originate within 3" of this model except during its activation So both Maintain Machines and Empowered have the "other" clause, excluding C. Hoffman from effecting himself. So the real operative question, Is Hoffman considered "within X inches" of himself. I say yes, but I also see how someone could argue the other side... ---------- Post added at 12:33 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:45 AM ---------- So the more I am thinking. "X inches within" really needs to include the model itself, or think of all the other situations that would break... A) spells/abilities without resists that let models perform healing flips on model "within X inches" As far as I have ever seen, models are usually allowed to target themselves with these types of effects which implies they would be considered "within" Not trying to make the question bigger than what it is... It seems to me it is much less painful to consider that "within X inches" also includes the model itself... unless somene can provide an extremely strong argument supporting the opposing view...

So more I think about it, the more I am sure that Hoffmans dampening field would shut down his own aura as soon as his activation was over.... I don't own the model, but doesn't the mechanical attendant also have the maintain machines ability (this is the ability Hoffman has that lets him let models ignore listed talents) So Hoffman could choose to ignore dampening field (via the totem) at the point some other model wanted to cast an aura. Then at the point some enemy aura came into play, Hoffman could instantly choose whether to restore the dampening field (and cancel his friendly aura in the process), or continue to let the bad aura in...

All, Quick question about Dampening Field. Suppose Hoffman (0) Assimilates a talent from a friendly construct that produces an aura. Hoffman then throws the aura up at some point during the course of his activation. Does this aura then disappear when Hoffmans activation ends due to the effects of the dampening field. I suspect the answer to this is yes, but just looking for confirmation... I am thinking that the "originating within 3 inches" clause in the ability is "originating" strictly in terms of distance and there is no temporal component to its meaning. So similarly an enemy/friendly model that puts up an aura while outside of the dampening field that then subsequently moves such that its base is withing 3" of Hoffman would also instantly have the aura canceled? There is no issue with pulses or blasts as these are transitory by nature... Any thoughts on this matter appreciated

Ratty, Keltheos Thanks you for your input. The question is now answered After checking with some of the people that I play with I found that people were doing all sorts of things with Blood Price I don't know if either of you agree with my earlier statements about the text for Blood Price perhaps being a bit confusing? I would be interested to know if you agree with this? I am definitely interested in helping my local group play as correct a game as possible, but without becoming overbearing about it. I am a bit of a lurker in these forums, but I just wanted to say I appreciate the work you guys to help clarify the game...

Ratty (and others), Apologies, but not sure that input fully helps clarify the actual question. I do get that that the Note that you mentioned states that Killjoy gets to melee strike the nearest model in the event that he is already in melee... Still the question I really need the answer on is when does the effect of Blood Price occur: On the third turn or greater does Blood Price occur A) at the "Start Activation" phase before all models have activated? or as soon as Killjoy activates? This hugely affects how you have to play that model. It ended up being a thorny argument in a game that was recently played. I would also like to point out the vague text on the V2 card Blood Price - Starting with the third turn, if this model is and play and does not have an enemy model in its melee range at the start of an activation phase, it immediately charges the closest model. (This is the V2 text for Killjoy) I bolded the clause that is causing trouble for our gaming group. Should "at the start of an activation phase" be interpreted to mean: A) When a model activates (not my belief) When the "Start Activation" phase occurs (my belief) C) One person in our gaming group that I consulted thought it should mean when any model activates (meaning Killjoy would get multiple free charges, not my belief) The problem is that the text on the card does not perfectly dovertail as a matter of verbiage with a dinstinct concept from the rules book. Basically because the text does not specifically say something like: At the start of this models activation or During the Start Activation Phase It is leaving an opening for arguments about what Blood Price is asking us to do. Also just wanted to say I have tried reasoning this out using the text of the card and the rules manual, and even though I believe I am correct, I also completely see how my opponent can defend and insist that his interpretation is correct. When I am faced with such situations, my usual instinct is to abandon using the model in games. Honestly and in a larger sense, I believe that many rules disputes in the game could be helped by more precise verbiage on the stat cards, but I also understand how difficult it is to playtest a game with virtually infinite possible interactions and interaction interpretations. Despite these perceived flaws, this is the best table top miniatures game I have ever played Overall I love this game...

Any other takers on this question? So far the tally is 1 for, and 1 against ....

Not sure I am convinced. There is a "Start Activation" step which is Step A in the small rules manual, which is then followed by the "Initiative Flip", which is then followed by a "Alternating Actions Step" (what we normally do most of the time). The wording on blood price is confusing the salient bit "if this model is and play and does not have an enemy model in its melee range at the start of an activation phase" Models activate, they do not have an activation phase. If Blood Price starts when Killjoy activates, then I agree with your interpretation If Blood Price occurs when the "Start Activation" step of Activation Phase occurs, then I believe my interpretation is correct I would need a good reason to prefer, purely based on the text of Blood Price, that it happens on the start of Killjoy's activation. In which case the much simpler wording of "When this model activates..." would have been much clearer. ---------- Post added at 06:34 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:30 PM ---------- Apologies. I do not want to come off as sounding rude. Just looking for an ironclad reasoning that could not be argued. I just don't think the text of Blood Price makes 100% clear... the wording is somewhat ambiguous in my opinion.

This is a relatively simple question I hope. First the specific text on Blood Price Blood Price - Starting with the third turn, if this model is and play and does not have an enemy model in its melee range at the start of an activation phase, it immediately charges the closest model. (This is the V2 text for Killjoy) My interpretation is that he charge occurs in the "Start Activation Phase" before any model from either crew activates. For Killjoy this amounts to an out of turn Activation that is limited to the Charge. I just wanted to be sure that the charge happens at the Start Activation Phase (which happens before any models activate), and not the start of Killjoys Activation, which would mean he essentially has to use 2 AP to charge. Thanks in advance for your responses.

Thanks for clarification. I was 90% sure last night. 99.99% sure before this posting, and now as certain as I can be. This obviously drastically affects how mobile Pandora can be, so it is important to get this right...

Hello all, Fairly new to game and had a question about Pandora Fading Memory So here is what her V2 card says Fading Memories: Whenever this model wins a Wp Duel, Push this model 4" in any direction So here is how I see it 1. Pandora casts Project Emotions which is a Wp resist spell (assume successful) 2. Pandora has won a Simple Casting Duel with a total of X 3. Now the model that was being targeted makes a Simple Resist Duel against X (assume failure) So all simple duels involve only the model and a number. Pandora does not have any connection to the simple resist duel, she cannot "win" or "lose" this duel. Based on the resisting model "winining" or "losing" the simple resist duel, Pandora will get to apply the effect of her spell Since she does not win anything on the failed resist, she cannot use that duel to invoke her fading memories.... My opponent had a different interpretation and was treating failed Wp spell resists for Pandora's spells as successful Wp duels for Pandora, thus allowing her to gain the push off of all her spells (not legitimate), as well as successful incite/pacify chains (legitimate) and failed Expose Fears check from enemy models (legitimate). Anyone that can shed some light on the correct interpretation of this situation would be greatly appreciated...