Omadon

Not being a defeatist, being a realist. Sorrows, as they are, arent worth the points. Alps kick the crap out of them, as do tots (Who have amazing synergy with Lilitu/Lelu). The point of them was their ability to do things without needing to waste AP walking, and with that gone, they are quite literally half as good as they were, and when there are three point models out there that I personaly think were better than them in the first place - there really isn't any contest whatsoever. Which is a shame.

Untrue. You cannot, I repeat, cannot kill yourself with a cost. The errata specifically pointed out Death's Lessons and Desolation, both of which do damage after they've been cast, depending upon the result of the spell. Also - the rule that prevents you from shooting your master vanished a very long time ago, it's in the errata somewhere.

Take Ashes. If your points scale has room for it, take him. Desolation Engines arent usually worth 12 points - all summoned models tend to be a bit weaker to make up for the fact that you don't have to pay for them. At 30, I'd probably take Ashes, Alyce and however many SPA you felt were appropriate. Ashes is superior in every possible way to a desolation engine, and if you get to make one later in the game, then bonus. Ashes can take a burnout from Alyce and genuinley not care, and his ability to wear down opposing models and then rebuild himself, especially in smaller games, is probably actually a little OP. The effort hey commit to killing him (Should they choose to do so) is all for naught if you rebuild him, and if they choose to ignore him, then.. well. ouch.

Consider - the original wording of Keep Pace was that whenever a construct moved. At some point during that period, pushes got reworded to being movement, indirectly changing how the original workind of Keep Pace actually worked. The direct result of this was (If you look at it from the right angle) One moves, then the other pushes, then the one that pushed has moved, so another pushes, then blahblahblah you get the idea. In it's previous incarnation, it gave them infinite movement for those willing to take the rules utterly literally. I think taking the joined movement away from all constructs and just to SPAs was a bit unnecessary, but with ashes in mind, it probably makes sense.

Then he's lying to you. Waldgeists are pants against Levi as he ignores armour. As a Levi player - you should keep in mind two things. The first of which (and simultaniously most rewarding/difficult) - Transpositioning him away from the waifs is good, as it'll kill them both when they activate. You're at a solid dissadvantage against his high Wp, so this isn't particularly reliable if they're waiting for it and are saving cards to wards you off. Screw up transposition and you're pretty much just stood there, waiting to be wasted to death (literally). Also - retrospectivley, if he gets initiative, figures you're going to do this, and then companion activates one of them with him, they only die if they finish an activation far enough away from him. The second, and probably easiest of the things you can do to him, is to engage him with Lilith (hopefully after he's activated) and put him to exactly two wounds. This prevents him from stacking a stone to use on you, and also prevents him from using unnatural wasting (the badass one that halves your HP) It also (while this might not sound like a faveourable result) prevents Alyce from straight shooting him in the back of the head to kill him off. The goal here isn't to kill him this turn, it's to stare him for cards and HP. Lock him in melee and prevent him from dying has two benefits - Levi with no HP to spend can't really do anything to Lilith in melee, as Unmaking costs you HP, and it also prevents him from refreshing his hand, while you get to pick up another 7. Once you've got a turn where he's been starved, Then you target the waifs. Until this point, simply do not let him get LoS to you. Levi isn't quick by any stretch of the imagination, and tbh - you can kill Alyce with damn near anything. She only has 4Df, I've had her taken down by Tots before. Other things to consider - If you get the chance, swapping an SPA primed to become an engine with something scary really screws up his day, and making that kind of play often will force engines to pop up early. Still not sure what exactly to do about Ashes (Which pleases me, half of his abilitys were my idea ^^) Find some way to get a mature up in his grill and two-shot the ****er before he has a chance to whirling-blender attack your stuffs, then pray you get a lucky round of melee hitting the core - again, the mature is pretty good at it due to having a weak of 4. Also - not really my thing, but have you considered taking Lilith's personal totem and dropping Love on a desolation engine/SPA? Any effects applied to one shift to the other when they spawn, so even if you have to do it early, it's going to be stuck not being able to hit stuff for the whole turn. Especially good if you can catch one that's just had Burnout speculativley cast on it ^^ At present - that's about all I can think of, I've had alot of experience in the Lilith/Levi matchup, as my brother mains her, and tbh - he usually kicks my ass.

I can more than likley bring myself and a couple others. I myself will almost certainly be there. Sidenote - will you be permitting Proxies of unreleased models? EDIT: Who'se coming up from somerset?

Er, Spirit Food is enemies only? iirc. Also, didn't see the rules of equivelancy thing. It clearly, obviously states that you can't make a Gaki and a Seishin from the same model. Presumably this means that you will get to pick? And furthermore, why would you waste Kirai's extra life like that? You've got Into the Spirit World for a reason. If you need her to be a spirit, then use that. The HP you waste can keep Seishin alive to prevent her from imploding - patience is necessary with this master. Furthermore - the crooked man is basically pointless for her. It doesn't have any synergy with her whatsoever. If anything - it's worth a full compliment of Seishin - convert the whole lot into extra stuff, and Then think about killing off your own models. Saying that this list is 3-0 only states that you've beaten three people, and says nothing of how good their lists are either.

Correct and incorrect - you're right about expose fears, pardon me on that, however. There are four steps to spellcasting - Step 1 is target decleration, Step 2 is the casting duel (Where we see weather or not something is Successfully Cast or not - also a place whereby you have room to activate a trigger), and then Step 3 is Resist Duels, and Step 4 is the application of spell effects. I remember this specifically because it's the same wording as Levi's Disciplined Caster, which doesn't care weather or not they resist. Also, Chocobo - if you want to get into specific master VS situation responses, Panda could just project emotions onto her so that she's got a -flip on Wp duels, which should prevent her from breaking Lilitu's Irresistable (Or Panda's for that matter). But this is besides the point, there may well be a specific master/whatever combo that beats this. I'm sure somebody will think of one, but in the meantime. The broader implications of 18" death traps are all I'm concerned with.

why do they wither and die? they use Twisted Thoughts to heal eachother, and Nekama gives them regen 1. That covers the three damage they would suffer from two sided, and as soon as you get a second blood counter on anybody, they make a Lelu, and suddenly you have oodles of healing, and the only way to try to stop it is to approach into the vortex of lures. From which there is no escape.

mm, amen. I just imagine the focus here is to get Rising Powers out the door without everything exploding. the errata shall come, in due time ^^ furthermore - while Levi has a huge choice of models, I tend mostly to stick to SPAs/Ashes now, with Alyce, which adds up to (13+12+8) 33ish on it's own. You could be daring and take some other models, but I'd always recommend Ashes and Alyce, as they're both utterly badass. The more SPAs you get/make the more mobile and horrifying Ashes becomes. Soyeah - beyond those 21 points, not really sure anymore ^^ However - not so sure on Joss, he's hungry for tomes, which Levi wants to do stuff, and Levi hurts far more than he does. Try to aim for things that cover other suits, like Masks - for example, Levi has a solid use for tomes/ravens by himself/with ashes, and Alyce has headshot. Soyeah - a solid use for masks would be a good idea.

Pandora Nekama-13 X2 Lilitu-14 Terror Tot-3 +5 stones That, as a 35 point list, kills absolutly anything that it can see. Any model within 18 inches will drop dead. Double Take doesn't even check to see if they resist, it's on successful cast. So you can just drop fours all day, and if panda hits them, they're screwed. I'm gonna put up some battle reports of games with this, as ranting about how it looks on paper clearly isn't having the desired effect. EDIT: Furthermore, aside from the combo there, it's not like these models don't have synergy. They're perfect for eachother. To have an instant-death loop on an enemy model that, at most, requires that you get a spell off on it with pandora before you start casting at them, in addition to models that synergize perfectly together, it just. god. I feel like we're reading different models here. How is this not completly busted? What beats it? Unless you can hide from the Wk5" flying Lilitu who have 18" range on lure for the entire game, goad activations until that point, and then kill the lot of them, then I just don't understand what anybody is supposed to do. MORE EDIT: Also! As double take doesn't care weather or not you resist, it doesn't matter if it's a master or anything, sure, you'll resist a bunch of them from stones, but she only needs a 4, and you need, even with a master with 7Wp, thats solid 7s vs solid 4s. All you need to do is catch them with panda's project, that is the sole requirement. Another point just raised here - Lilitu also gives Panda free movement upto 18" around wherever she is, simply by chaincasting lure on her - early game, the lilitu don't need to move, so even if you just triple cast and fail expose fears, thats 12". This part itself isn't particularly bust - it just goes to show how much synergy this has. I need to find me some enormous tournament that permits proxies in the UK before everybody comes to their senses

Right, okay, what happens when it's preceeded by a project emotions on defensive flips? She's effectivley Ca10 (Nekama's -Wp aura). Seriously. How can this possibly be working as intended? She needs a four for a free hit, and adverage joe dude has what.. 5Wp? 6Wp? Even if she rolls out all fours, they need a pair of nines/tens to dodge the spell? And then they get a minus on their Df flip for her melee attack, and - that in mind, with pandora there, she doesn't even need to hit them. A string of fours will kill somebody. And you can take two of them! And it's range 18"! And, you can give them flight to reposition them with impunity. Not to mention that this list has, in addition to all of this, Nekama stood there, not only enabling the instant annihilation of any model that the Lilitu can see, but also Being Bloody Nekama. O_o

Er, kuna - you, also, need to read the keep pace cuddle (It only works on friendly SPAs after walk actions). Also - taking no stones with levi is baadd. Levi makes some of the best use of stones in the game - considering that you can stack your stone for a cast with Death's Lessons (Use lessons to find the best card in the top three, place it two down, and then cheat over whatever you get with the highest card in your hand to almost guarantee Unnatural Wasting landing on anybody that isn't a horribly lucky Lilith/Perdita. Always take at least 6, I'd say - and use them to assassinate masters. Only need to make two spells hit to kill absolutly anybody. (12/2=6-1=5, 5/2=2.5 round up to 3, +1=1 life, followed by transformation) Spiders are great and all, but the idea of making extra spiders from corpse tokens is way too cumbersome. Just focus on killing stuff, and using their models to make SPAs. Only time I'd ever even consider them is against hardcore caster lists like Sonnia, and even then - she focus casts something and blows them all up, or just punches them to death with stalkers.

Just a thought - what happens when you use Nekama's (0) Nephilim Heart to give her +masks on cast. Double Take goes infinite, and even if you miss them with melee, as soon as somethings been marked by a project emotions from pandora, it gets dragged into Nekama's -2Wp aura and is on a minus flip for defence. Emotional Trauma will do the rest D: Not quite sure how to fix this. Maybe make Neverborn Heart expire after their next action? Perhaps successful Strikes/Casts, so that you don't lose the buff after trying to grow once. Unless it's the Df one. The wording will be slightly cumbersome, but something has to be done. But not before I win some games with the succubus brigade

Ah, slight issue. Levi can't Spend Wd that would kill him (IE: Blessings of Desolation/Entropic Transformation). However, he can cast things that will result in him dying as an after effect (IE: Death's Lessons/Desolation), because the only requirement for those actions is the necessary AP to activate them. The contention in rules is the difference is weather something is part of the cost or part of the effect - the rules don't check far enough to know what the effect is to let you cast it, but they will stop you if the spell costs you your life in the first place. Hope that clears things up ^^

I'd expect it to be pretty quick tbh. The idea of needing to contort across the board sounds like the singularly most awkward thing ever conceived

Not sure if this is accurate - feels kindof weird if it is, but the dust storm doesn't have a walk stat. ..?

Once again, start of another month (and I'm not too busy getting engaged to think to mention it ) and we're running a league down in yeovil. The way we run it is that we pair up over the first week of the month, and then let everybody who has a game know who they have, so they can arrange a game in store. USEFUL DETAILS: Entry fee is £5 Prizes are thrown violently at players at some point around the end of the month. As of this month, we're using the Book 2 game setup rules (and obviously all new models are legal) We're also permitting use of proxies, so long as you've got a copy of the book yourself so we don't have every game taking an extra half hour due to people tossing a book back and forth to read stats. (Also - we would obviously prefer if you've taken a bit more than a cursory glance at them before the game you plan to play them in ) Our shop can be found attt: 7 South Western Terrace Yeovil Somerset BA20 1NB Contact numbers!: 01935 427077 <- The Shop itself 07872 831375 <- My mobile (I have odd sleeping patterns, call whenever ^^) We also have a Facebook Page where pretty much everything you need to know can be found in triplicate Any other questions, just throw them at me, or one of those numbers, or you get the idea. <3

Also, not only does this cuddle effect her, it also totally ruins the things collette uses, the mannequins. They're permanently slow! Their options are move up to something and link, and then do nothing, or stay rooted to the spot and cast. Mirrors requires them to be nearby a model to be useful, and that means that you need to set up the activation the turn before, and not move either of them. How much more cumbersome can it possibly be?

Actually - they're woes, which makes them succeptable to unhealthy relationship, which the doppleganger can copy, and then give you a million extra mimics, but that's not particualrly relevant to why I think the link cuddle was silly. This isn't a change, this is a flat cuddle. This kicks them squarley in the teeth. After link was altered to be only walks/EoA, that was almost enough. The main issue with the whole list was Panda's ability to zoom across the map and obliterate everything with impunity. Now that she can't incite/pacify friendlys. This cannot happen. After that - I don't grasp why Wyrd are Still Cuddling Panda? She needed one good kick in the woosh turn, and I personally think even that cuddle was lop-sided. (All you really needed to do was reword Link so that you couldn't link to models with link, and then kick the wording of emotional trauma so that it included Panda in the name). This change basically makes the sorrows useless. In a copmetetive sense anyway. Any kind of important turn, where Panda is threatened - you don't have time to carefully re-link every single sorrow to it's respective target before you do something important. In some cases - that will allow your opponent to activate near enough every model they have. This is, in effect, killing an ant with a bazooka. Having now reached page two of this thread, reading Karn's post makes me feel like I'm repeating alot of what he's said However, I'm comitted now. And I think I can sum most of this up by one major request. What exaclty was the logic behind this cuddle? What was the thought process? I don't understand what caused them to be cuddled so badly after the first change to link. That alone (Alongside Incite/Pacify cuddles) took Panda down more than enough pegs to be playable. If we could just see the working behind this, maybe we would understand? =\

Now, you see - I don't get how that's awesome. I've always been a huge advocate of red not working on -flips. Sure, it's funny from an observers point of view, but how does that make for a good game? Your defensive ability being the death of you. If I'm playing seamus, and people at my shop know that they havent had the red for ages, they will pile every crappy thing they have into him in a bid to force the red, and you know what - it works. The black joker - you can keep tabs on. If you draw it, and hold it, sure you're down a card for most of the game, but you won't critically fail something important. You can't do that to their red. The only thing you can do is pray it doesn't come out early, and if they only have about 10 cards left and it still hasn't come, then either avoid them, or poke them with random stuff till it happens. Similarly - holding the red, and finding a situation to be able to force it's use feels like such a more skillful application than lolz-you've-got-H2W. However, I've been rebuffed on this topic many times before, so I'm aware I'm somewhat isolated in my views. Such is life!

1) Hamelin can only hire soulless, insignificant and Ht1 models, iirc - and the Viktorias are none of those. 2) Nop, Hamelin is unique to Hamelin, so you can only either have the master or the minion. 3) You can swap them, or pull the one you arent activating to the one you're using the ability with, not push one to the other.

Seconded! I may just have to buy this, untill I can be bothered to make a decent sized one.

Er, does it state moral flip? That's all constructs/undead are immune to. I've only seem the beta rules, but Smother is just a Wp-12 duel iirc? Constructs/whatever don't have immunity to those, that's immune to influence that does that. So, to answer your question, wrong Half the game isn't comprehensivley immune to their stuff. EDIT: Unless by some twist of dementia they have made it a morale duel, in which case totally alters their purpose. I can't imagine this happening, as surley being able to do their thing on everything as opposed to being -another- weird source of terrifying is more important? Just, to answer your question, if the ability has the words "Is a moral duel" in it, then you're right, if not, wrong.

Looking at the current events forum, a fair bit of them blend in together, and I can only make it to a given two or three on any page. Is there any chance we could get them broken into sub-forums for things like America/Europe/So on. They don't even need to be that small a division, and kind of seperation would make it alot easier to find relevant events =)