Woe is me...

[karn987]

I could be wrong' date=' but from reading the old rules for link it didn't look like you could tow a model with a sorrow. It states that if a linked model moved, push [i']this model into base contact. Not the other way around.

Then again I never really used them before, so my understanding of their use is limited. This still doesn't stop me from feeling like I may never use them now even though they are half painted. :doh:

Correct, you could not have a Sorrow tow a model, but a model could tow a sorrow.

Lets just hope they come to their senses on this. There is a lot of support here for restoring the old end time to them. I'm really hoping they will because very little else makes sense. I'd rather see back peddling then scrambling around trying to make it sorta work. This is why I don't think many of the alternatives that people have mentioned will work. Sorrows were built to work this one way and for some reason, they decided to remove the key ability in making them work. It's one of those things that I really wish I could have seen the discussion for this change.

Edited September 6, 2010 by karn987

[karn987]

There's a really simple test to see if a model is OTT or not. From my experience it applies to almost every single game I've ever seen.

It works like that:

1. Do I want to spam the model?

a) no, I want to take minimal amount needed for access to its abilities.

no, I don't want it at all.

c) yes, full crew of Sorrows and three more on top of that!

If the answer is a), they are OK. If the answer is , they are too weak, if answer is c), they are too good indeed.

Since I've seen people buying 6 or even 9 Sorrows before, I'm pretty sure they used to be in category c).

They clearly should be in category a) now, but if they ended up being in (i.e. too weak) it doesn't mean everything has to be reversed and returned to how it used to be before.

They were A and C and are currently B. The reason they were not 100% C is because they did not work well at C, some poeple just chose to play them that way. Also their was the glitch in their wording previously that let them do some horrible hive nest of sorrows with Pandora. With that fixed, they were A nearly all the time because it was a weak weak list to do C.

Though I have seen C for most models in the game. Especially some of the insanely strong Res monsters like Samari Punk Zombies. For solid models that are not limited by Rare or unique, you tend to always see a spam list revolving around them. Spiders, Hoarcats, etc.

[Hesky]

Whilst I am annoyed a Marshal has still not made an official comment on this thread I am equally annoyed with the "Sorrow is now useless" argument that continues to crop up.

They are not useless at all. They only now require a change in the way Pandora goes on the offensive. I still win games against good players having adapted my playstyle slightly.

Ways around the link change..

Dont have Pandora in a position where she HAS to activate first.

Do spread sorrows out in front of her to deny line of sight and give her some protection moving forwards.

Dont skip Pandora off ahead of the "pack"

Do have the rearmost sorrows activate first so that as she moves forward those at the front can link to her when the vanguard sorrows die.

Dont be so defeatist and actually try using them some more

Do answer this freaking post Wyrd so we can put it to bed

[Krysno]

I played a game about a week ago with a good friend of mine. I was playing Pandora, and he had the Ortega crew with a couple of mercs. I really want to figure these Sorrows out so I took two of them and I did get viable use from them.

The first thing that I did was to forget about Link. The Sorrows advanced on their own with Candy and Kade. Baby Kade was killed by Perdita, so his Sorrow joined up with Candy and Sorrow number one. While Pandora, the Doppelganger, and a Ronin handled Perdita, Nino, and the Executioner, Candy and her two Sorrows rolled up the right side of my opponent's force. Those two Sorrows didn't do much of anything by attacking or casting, but they amplified Candy's Self Loathing spell enough to kill the Convict Gunslinger and another Ronin with relative ease.

This was only a small victory for the Sorrows, but it showed me (however small the example) that they can still be useful. The role of Link has changed. It may be more useful now to consider it a re-deployment tool than to consider it an initial deployment tool.

[Omadon]

Dont be so defeatist and actually try using them some more

Not being a defeatist, being a realist. Sorrows, as they are, arent worth the points. Alps kick the crap out of them, as do tots (Who have amazing synergy with Lilitu/Lelu). The point of them was their ability to do things without needing to waste AP walking, and with that gone, they are quite literally half as good as they were, and when there are three point models out there that I personaly think were better than them in the first place - there really isn't any contest whatsoever. Which is a shame.

[Murphy'sLawyer]

Sorrows, as they are, arent worth the points. Alps kick the crap out of them, as do tots (Who have amazing synergy with Lilitu/Lelu)...blah blah... there are three point models out there that I personaly think were better than them in the first place ...blah something.

This sums it up. Why should we have to find a reason to use them when better options are out there? The only time you would consider using them, before and now, is when you are running Pandora. No other model aside from totems are like that. But now other models that cost the same just run far better with Pandora than the sorrows, which is a shame because Pandora is the only model that gives them synergy.

So I'm not saying, "the world is coming to an end", just saying that they aren't worth 3ss, period. Not much to argue there.

So, so long sorrows. But there are just better options than you.:wave:

[karn987]

This sums it up. Why should we have to find a reason to use them when better options are out there? The only time you would consider using them, before and now, is when you are running Pandora. No other model aside from totems are like that. But now other models that cost the same just run far better with Pandora than the sorrows, which is a shame because Pandora is the only model that gives them synergy.

So I'm not saying, "the world is coming to an end", just saying that they aren't worth 3ss, period. Not much to argue there.

So, so long sorrows. But there are just better options than you.:wave:

Exactly. People have been putting this exactly right.

This is why I would love to see them have the old end time back for Sorrows at least. It restores their proper place in lists and in neverborn and it was NOT overpowered to begin with. It seemed like an accidental cuddle that they missed. They just need to fix it now by giving Sorrows back their end time and leave link alone otherwise. But they need this back, they really do. As I've said, this is one of, if not the most critical ability they have.

[karn987]

Whilst I am annoyed a Marshal has still not made an official comment on this thread I am equally annoyed with the "Sorrow is now useless" argument that continues to crop up.

They are not useless at all. They only now require a change in the way Pandora goes on the offensive. I still win games against good players having adapted my playstyle slightly.

Ways around the link change..

Dont have Pandora in a position where she HAS to activate first.

Do spread sorrows out in front of her to deny line of sight and give her some protection moving forwards.

Dont skip Pandora off ahead of the "pack"

Do have the rearmost sorrows activate first so that as she moves forward those at the front can link to her when the vanguard sorrows die.

Dont be so defeatist and actually try using them some more

Do answer this freaking post Wyrd so we can put it to bed

A few things...

Pandora will generally always have to activate first because it's how her and her crew plays.

Pandora needs to be in range of her abilities and her auras of effects so that means she needs to be up front and in risk. This is why she has the Wp duel to target her and Martyr, to enable her to but upfront and actually work.

We are not being defeatist in any way. There are many posts of people putting up ways to still use sorrows. We've admitted there are, but they are not good or worth their cost any more. It's like finding a use for a chair with a broken leg rather then simply fixing it. It's the wrong way to go about it.

We all still win games with her for the most part but they are not good games or people do not enjoy them any more or sorrows are not used. Sorrows are junk right now. Yes you can find a use for them and force a place for them in a list, but it's like I said, finding a use for a chair with a broken leg. People want them fixed. People paid good money for them the way they were and got used to playing with them that way.

The overwhelming consensus has been that they are cuddled and that some kind of fix is badly needed. What that fix is, differs from person to person. In my opinion, the best fix is to restore the old end time to Sorrows and clear all issues immediately (Ie put the leg back on the chair and not build one out of random parts that will never sit level).

The point is, this is a problem. We should not be forced to uproot our play style suddenly and have good balanced models cuddled on us. It's bad for the game and the player base.

Edited September 7, 2010 by karn987

[Murphy'sLawyer]

Well they should leave the "only one model can be linked" because this does stop the excessive abuse of linking a ton of sorrows to Panddy. That was broken.

But fixing the link so it doesn't end at the closing phase seems needed. IMHO

[karn987]

Well they should leave the "only one model can be linked" because this does stop the excessive abuse of linking a ton of sorrows to Panddy. That was broken.

But fixing the link so it doesn't end at the closing phase seems needed. IMHO

I hate to agree with you on this one (because I loved playing 2 - 3 sorrows linked to her but not abusing it), but I do. I think it's the best thing for the game to prevent the abuse that was happening, though most of that has already been fixed pre link snafu at least.

[Hesky]

Okay so..

As promised I spent the week using my sorrows some more against various opponents and gangs and quite honestly I do not see them as useless at all.

With a little care and smart maneuvering I was still able to use them as damage mitigators for Pandora and all in all I still think they are worth taking. This giant gamebreaking-cuddle conversation all boils down to just one little thing. You now have to activate the sorrow first and link to Pandora before she goes sailing off across the board..

If we Neverborn/Pandora enthusiasts are perfectly honest with ourselves I would have to say that this change has only brought her further in line with the other masters in the game as far as balance is concerned..

It is my firm opinion (and thats all it is before someone starts whining) as a tried and practiced Pandora player that this change has only made things a little more even-keeled for our opponents.

At the beginning of the turn Pandora should STILL have a Sorrow in base contact with her anyways so you can still use it as a defence if your opponent gets initiative.

I think that the dilemma this creates for us as Pandora players is both enjoyable and edgy. Do we go straight on the offensive with Pandora before our opponent has a chance to react? Or do we first link up that Sorrow and give the chance for first blood back to him?

I think the change is fair and although there are better 3ss models available to her they are far from useless. When all things are said and done I will still be using Sorrows because they are fun and played correctly can still win you games.

Are they still as good as they were?

Nope

Are they useless and broken like a 3 legged chair?

Sorry absolutely not

The more I read this thread the more I see people pleading for something back to make life easier for themselves because of a refusal to adapt. The kind of thing I expect to read on a GW-oriented forum. Not everyone who plays Wargames is a Min/Maxer who wants optimal performance out of every single model they own. I still find Sorrows very useful, I still find them fun and I find the change brings Pandora out of the slightly overpowered bracket and into line with the rest of the game..

Edited September 13, 2010 by Hesky

[Murphy'sLawyer]

Nay. I'm not asking them to fix em any more, because the new models are far better than the sorrows anyways. I mean you can try to justify them all day but they don't function enough to be worth 3ss much like Bad Juju is not worth it's ss.

But if you like them field them. Just don't think your going to sell is on them because you found a small nitch for them. I like versatile models, not ones that require serious maneuvering of the rest of my crew to get them to work. I mean they are not suppose to be a ball and chain slowing down an already slow crew.

My reason for saying they're situational is that having to activate your sorrows first every round before you move any of your other models does seriously put you in a bad position in most games where timing means win or loss against decent opponents.

Edited September 14, 2010 by Murphy'sLawyer

[Hesky]

I am not looking to sell anyone on sorrows. I am merely asking people to stop complaining about how useless they are when they are clearly not. The title of this thread says it all in fact..

And what I described is not a "nitch" (niche?) as you so eloquently put it.. They are still useful and what sort of serious maneuvering of the rest of your crew are you talking about? I agree there are other models that are better but sorrows are far from a "ball and chain"

I could care less if you carry on using sorrows or not. I just want people to stop complaining just so they can have things back the way they were. They still work, they are still fun and for those players who are about having fun and not trying to build the ultimate steamroller lists are probably still a popular choice.

So yeah if you are clever and persistent enough to find a use for them go ahead and use them. I use sorrows still almost every game and I dont really have to compromise my crew to do so. You can still do almost everything with them that you used to be able to do. Only now you have to activate one before pandora if you want to take her on a serious offensive. Small price to pay for her offensive abilities if you ask me...

[Murphy'sLawyer]

I say this because I took my local Pandora player to the cleaners because he had to follow the activation sequence that you described. I had the upper hand and out maneuvered him every turn and his Sorrows did nothing in their activation except to link. So they were nothing more than a damage sponge. They never once got me with emotional stress because I would easily pick them off as they spent their turn linking.

So I am saying this from the other side of the table. They are easy to avoid and kill and tended to slow Pandora down because he would lose his Sorrows if Pandora used Fading Memory because the link only works with Walk actions. So yes it is a ball and chain for a model with a 3" walk.

And yes that word is suppose to be Niche. I was at work when I typed it on my phone.

Wow rereading my post has showed me I need to cut back on the coffee. Long drawn out sentences.

For reference.

(0) Link

Description should read as: This model and target model in base contact with it are Linked. After the model this model is Linked to completes a Walk Action or ends its activation, Push this model into base contact with the Linked model. A model can be Linked to one model at any time.

Edited September 14, 2010 by Murphy'sLawyer

[Wodschow]

They are easy to avoid and kill and tended to slow Pandora down because he would lose his Sorrows if Pandora used Fading Memory because the link only works with Walk actions. So yes it is a ball and chain for a model with a 3" walk.

Link also activates on finished activations.. Doesn't help much with getting them into Emotional Stress range, but certainly shouldn't slow Pandora down.

[Hesky]

So I am saying this from the other side of the table. They are easy to avoid and kill and tended to slow Pandora down because he would lose his Sorrows if Pandora used Fading Memory because the link only works with Walk actions. So yes it is a ball and chain for a model with a 3" walk.

This is not entirely true.. Yes the linked model doesnt move with her during Fading Memory. But if Pandora walks at any point the sorrow will then move into contact.. And if she doesnt take a walk action at all the sorrow will move into base contact immediately after Pandora finishes her activation.. Which is the desired result she needs anyways.. I dont see how this hinders either of them

[Murphy'sLawyer]

I guess I am looking at it from a maneuverability point of view. A lot of the schemes and strategies almost require decent speed and ability to move around the board. I find Lilith and LCB great for this and Zoraida will too when the Dolls come out. Pandora is the one that I am retooling because of the changes to Link.

I am loving the looks of the Alps and Stitched Together in Pandora's crew. But no matter how I try to like the Sorrows I just can't do it.

I mean I didn't like how players were linking tons of Sorrows to Pandora and flying around the board killing everything, but this feels like the opposite now. I mean Pandora is fine, but the Sorrows just don't hold their own any more.

So bring on the new releases and keep the sorrows the same so players don't continue to have nightmares about the broken tactics players used. The original wording of link was Broken with Pandora, but this way is just not worth the ss.

[karn987]

I really don't think stating all the reasons again is going to do much. But please read the start of the thread onward. There are a number of reasons why they are heavily gimped right now and a lot of evidence of this. The Sorrows just simply do not work well any more and it's a massive shame.

Yes you can still use them, but it is like using a 3 legged chair that was built with 4 legs. There is little doubt of this because of Pandora's play style and the need for a certain activation order to use the current Sorrows well screws her over. If your opponent knows what they are dealing with, they will easily capitalize on the activations you will be essentially wasting to link up each turn. I'm not going into it again, just see previous posts of mine for the explanations.

Btw Hesky, to say that the people here have no tried to adapt is dead wrong. We have tried to adapt, we have spent a lot of time on them. These are not posts made off the cuff, they have play time behind them. Adaption is always an option and one that was heavily explored. The solution people came up with is leave them out. Yes you can find a small nitch for them used a certain way, but that's how you use a chair with a broken leg. But if your enjoying using them, greate! As always Im really glad to find someone is happy with them.

Edited September 14, 2010 by karn987

[Hesky]

Again with the 3 legged chair example? Come on seriously...

You are doing little to convince me that they are useless. Wasting activations just to get them to link up? Nonsense.

What about all the other models in Malifaux that dont have link and dont require a piggy back ride to enemy lines..

Sorrows can still use their other abilities and then link up. Essentially this whole complaint is about not getting your sorrows delivered easily into the fray.

There is nothing Niche about the way I use sorrows. I use them much the same way as I always did. Only now with a little more patience. You are waiting for a rules marshal to tell you what deep down you probably already know. The old end time for sorrows was overpowered. It was a zero action that allowed them to follow Pandora freely across the board only to activate right beneath an enemies nose and cause even more damage. Pandora is and probably always will be my first and favourite Malifaux master and I have no problem admitting that the old rule made her a little overpowered..

I am not telling you I can have the odd fun game with Sorrows. I am telling you that I still manage to lay waste to other gangs with 3 or 4 sorrows in my own.

Rather than someone reply with a "glad you find a niche but we are all right" comment or another mention of how they play like broken furniture is there anyone else out there who can still get the best from them? They are not as good as they were I admit it but they are so far from useless that I cant see what all the complaining is about...

[karn987]

Again with the 3 legged chair example? Come on seriously...

You are doing little to convince me that they are useless. Wasting activations just to get them to link up? Nonsense.

What about all the other models in Malifaux that dont have link and dont require a piggy back ride to enemy lines..

Sorrows can still use their other abilities and then link up. Essentially this whole complaint is about not getting your sorrows delivered easily into the fray.

There is nothing Niche about the way I use sorrows. I use them much the same way as I always did. Only now with a little more patience. You are waiting for a rules marshal to tell you what deep down you probably already know. The old end time for sorrows was overpowered. It was a zero action that allowed them to follow Pandora freely across the board only to activate right beneath an enemies nose and cause even more damage. Pandora is and probably always will be my first and favourite Malifaux master and I have no problem admitting that the old rule made her a little overpowered..

I am not telling you I can have the odd fun game with Sorrows. I am telling you that I still manage to lay waste to other gangs with 3 or 4 sorrows in my own.

Rather than someone reply with a "glad you find a niche but we are all right" comment or another mention of how they play like broken furniture is there anyone else out there who can still get the best from them? They are not as good as they were I admit it but they are so far from useless that I cant see what all the complaining is about...

As I stated before, please read this thread. You will get all the answers you need from it and from the various posts here. There are a number of reasons and people have sited them. There is honestly far to much to repost.

They do play like broken furniture, they were designed around this end time. They function correctly around this end time and Pandora relies on this end time mechanic. They were not over-powered by any means before because they relied on their master to give them any real use at all. They were a good model a probably one of the most fairly priced models in the game. Now they are cuddled, and that has basically already been settled. Very few are arguing it hasn't been a cuddle.

What it boils down to now is, can they still find a realistic spot in Pandora's lists? Or are they doomed by their cuddle and will no longer be used. I for one think it is a mix of both because they can still be used, but they are not working well. They are working as well as a car with square wheels right now. Which again, is to say they can be made to work, we know that already, but they do not function well. As I stated in a previous post, we should not have to force them to work like we are having to. They should just work, that is a function of good design and testing. So hence, they should absolutely be fixed. What is going on now is the result of a changed rule that caused an un-intentional cuddle to a model.

You can state that their is no niche play to how you use them. Fine. Please explain better how you are using them. You say they are being used much of the same way as they were before. Next to no one else is saying the same thing. Doesn't that make you think? Maybe there is something you are missing? I know we have found ways to use them and I've found my own ways to give them some use. But it's all 3 legged chair and their play style feels very very much like that. There is something critically missing, and that was the old end time.

If this boils down to a difference of opinion, ok. We are at an impass in that sense then and their is little point to continuing this argument. But that wont change mine and many others belief that they are cuddled and badly need a fix and should be fixed. I also doubt we can change yours as you've found something everyone else has missed I guess. Or you are just happy with them, again great! I'm glad you can enjoy them, I wish I could say the same.

[Murphy'sLawyer]

Ok I'm out of this discussion now. I thought the way they were was broken, now I think they're just broke.

But I'm not going to complain because the Neverborn are getting models that would have me leaving the Sorrows at home anyways.

So as my farewell I say "hello new goodness" and "goodnight Sorrows". Sorry I never got a real chance to know ya. But a triple cuddle is just too much. (1. Limited to walk actions, 2. ends at end phase, 3. limit of one link per model)

[AvatarForm]

Ok I'm out of this discussion now. I thought the way they were was broken, now I think they're just broke.

But I'm not going to complain because the Neverborn are getting models that would have me leaving the Sorrows at home anyways.

So as my farewell I say "hello new goodness" and "goodnight Sorrows". Sorry I never got a real chance to know ya. But a triple cuddle is just too much. (1. Limited to walk actions, 2. ends at end phase, 3. limit of one link per model)

+1, this thread made me a sad panda... I think that RP has made certain minis redundant. Eg. Sorrows and BA.

Hope some errata can fix this breakage soon...