Timing of Loudest squeel?

[Ludvig]

Som'ers Loudest squeel has a pretty peculiar timing. "After an attack action is resolved against this model, push this model up to 4" in any direction."

The big question is basically if an action is resolved before declared triggers have been resolved. Let's say for example that a model has the more common "after resolving" general timing which kicks in after step 5 of the duel resolution. Should Loudest squeel be considered to be simultaneous with that trigger and Som'er goes first or is the action not fully resolved until the declared triggers with fixed points have resolved. They go "after step 5" but are still mentioned as part of resolving the attack so should probably go before Som'er? I haven't found any straight up mention of the triggers counting as part of resolving the action but if the trigger gives you another attack then the "actions causing actions" callout box clearly states that the original action hasn't resolved until the new action resolves. If the trigger isn't actually part of the original action then Som'er could push before the next attack. Super confused here but hoping I missed something basic that makes this super clear.

Similar conundrums are presented by the wave 1 guild masters who don't trigger "after succeeding" on their defensive stats but have their own wordings. In the case of Justice: "After an (sic) Ml attack fails against this model, this model deals damage 3/4/6 to the Attacker..." The timing here is probably less important because this damage flip doesn't care much about where the model is but technically Justice should do her damage after the enemy model's "after failing" or "after resolving" triggers?

[Ludvig]

@taagu

Resolving any triggers is a part of the resolution of an action and Som'ers trigger doesn't say it's after step five but after resolving the action so if another trigger is lined up then the action isn't at the end of it's resolution until that trigger has resolved, that's why Som'ers goes last most of the time the way I'm reading it. For an extreme example a cerberus triggering maul to take another attack will cause the original action to not resolve until the additional attack(s) have resolved because of the actions causing actions box so you could take four attacks and Somer will have to wait until all of them have resolve before pushing (possibly pushing multiple times at that point). Som'er trigger doesn't say it goes specifically after step 5 "resolve results" like normal after resolving triggers but after the attack is resolved which is often later than after step 5. Since triggers resolve at so many different times they didn't get their own steps in the resolution unfortunately. This also makes Somers trigger reall weird in that it technically cannot resolve until it has resolved but we can gloss over that for the good of the game I think. General, well defined trigger timings is one of my big hopes for m3e to avoid this sort of discussion.

 

My justicfication on why triggers are part of resolving an action comes from the breakdown of actions early in the book. From p10 of the online rules manual (p 21 in the real book): 
TRIGGERS
Triggers allow a model to change the results of an Action (when Attacking, being
Attacked, or taking a Tactical Action). Triggers will require that a character has a
suit (or multiple suits) in the final duel total.
If a Trigger is part of a specific Action it is listed below the Action’s description.
These are called Action Triggers and are part of the Action itself. This is most
common with Attack Actions. The Trigger will modify the effects of the Attack (like
dealing more damage or pushing a target).

[Rillan]

Sorry im not in the mood and might misunderstand u but ->

Order in resolving actions:

- Attacker declared action and amount of SS and abilities he will benefit from

- Defender declared his abilities and SS he will use while defending

If Attacker hit

- Defender's trigger goes first (unless trigger mechanics)

- Attacker declares his trigger (unless trigger mechanics)

If attack resolved

- Attacker declares his abilities first

- Defender declares his abilities

In example Justice hit Sommer

Justice hit Sommer and declares Onslaught trigger (after damaging make another Attack Action against target) and Sommer declares

39 minutes ago, Ludvig said:

"After an attack action is resolved against this model, push this model up to 4" in any direction."

but since Justice 2nd attack comes from trigger and goes *after damaging* she can hit Sommer 2nd time before his trigger will work.

 

Hope i managed to help u.

 

[Adran]

Rhilian,defender declare SS use first

I read loudest Squee as the passive form of  "After resolving", so have always read it as a trigger that would occur before Onslaught. I'm not sure that I can back this up with a rules quote. 

[Ludvig]

@Rillan

It all depends on when "after resolving" is handled in relation to the action ending. After damaging triggers actually have the timing point of after step five of resolving the actio so technically they could have the same timing which would make Som'er push firdt because defender triggers go first if they have the same timing. 

[solkan]

The phrase "after an action/attack is resolved" isn't a synonym of "After resolving", as far as I can tell.  

As far as triggers being part of the action:

Quote

If a Trigger on an Action causes damage (whether a flip or a fixed amount), does that count as part of the original Action? Is it modified by effects like the Accuracy Modifier and Focus? Do fixed damage bonuses (such as from Hallucinogens or the Bigger they Are) apply to the Trigger?

Triggers that cause damage are a part of the Action which caused them. Any damage flip on such a Trigger would retain any Fate Modifiers to the original flip including Accuracy, Focus, cover, etc. Any fixed damage (such as the +1 damage from e Bigger ey Are) only applies to the initial Action (not any resulting Triggers). 

 

As far as Lady Justice's trigger goes, that seems to be the same case as the Dreamer's FAQ entry:

Quote

121. How does the timing for the Safe In My Bed Trigger work? When does e Dreamer discard his card, is it before or a er determining damage? Will defensive Abilities such as Impossible To Wound come into play for the Nightmare which suffers the effects?

e card is discarded a er determining that e Dreamer lost the duel but before determining any damage. Safe In My Bed does not use any of the keywords which have a specific timing in the book, so it must be applied when it says, which is “after an Attack Action succeeds against this model,” so immediately after the duel, but before determining damage. If the new target has any defensive Abilities such as Impossible to Wound or Armor, apply them as normal. However, things which happen when determining a target, such as Terrifying, will not come into play. 

"after an attack/Ml/etc action fails" should be the same argument as "after an Attack Action succeeds", right?

 

[Ludvig]

Thanks Solkan, that first quote seems to say that triggers are part of the action they belong to. As for the anility specific ones I think there are so many that contradict each other but the Squeel clearly says it happens after the action is resolved so if triggers are typically considered part of the action as per the faq that should means Som'er pretty muc always goes last. Was blanking on any official mention of triggers bring part of their actions.

[taagu]

According to the rule book page 32:

"A Trigger’s effect is resolved immediately unless another time is indicated in its description, as it may be resolved later."

Somer's trigger tells you it is resolved later, that is "After an Attack Action is resolved against this model" 

Which would be after step five of resolving opposed duels (there is only 5 steps) which is also the same time as all the specific ones called out in the rules would be resolved

from the triggers section (same page)

Some common timing terms used in Triggers are:

•After succeeding: These effects are resolved after Step 5, and only if the model with this Trigger wins the duel.

•After failing: These effects are resolved after Step 5, and only if the model with this Trigger fails the duel.

•After resolving: These effects happen after Step 5 regardless of who wins the duel.

•After damaging: These effects happen after Step 5 and only if the target suffers 1 or more damage from the Action. These effects are resolved before the damaged model is removed if it was killed by the damage.

If two Triggers would resolve at the same time the Defender's Trigger is resolved first.

In the lady J attacking Somer example, Somer would push before she gets to attack again