bigbopper Posted March 21, 2014 Report Share Posted March 21, 2014 As the title says. Model a hits model b with a melee attack and gets a push trigger, the attack also kills model b. does model a still get to push model b? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
0 Uktena Posted March 21, 2014 Report Share Posted March 21, 2014 Which rule specifically? It could be worded as condition for the ability, but most likely is an effect. Case in point, the Mature Nephilim trigger Charge Through. Triggers on the damage regardless of whether a model is pushed. That's most common, but I haven't read all the cards Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
0 The Godlyness Posted March 21, 2014 Report Share Posted March 21, 2014 What's the wording on the trigger. If it's after damaging then yes. Or succeeding or resolving. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
0 bigbopper Posted March 21, 2014 Author Report Share Posted March 21, 2014 What's the wording on the trigger. If it's after damaging then yes. Or succeeding or resolving. The valedictorians ML attack. The trigger is transfer student "after damaging an enemy, push target up to 4" in any direction, then push this model into base contact with target model" . We played it that I can't happen as the target model was killed and needed to be removed immediately. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
0 The Godlyness Posted March 22, 2014 Report Share Posted March 22, 2014 The after damaging trigger explicitly says that the trigger is resolved before the model is removed. Seems weird pushing dead things but you can do it. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
0 Uktena Posted March 22, 2014 Report Share Posted March 22, 2014 Yep. Fling that ragdoll. (Then go get it.) 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
0 bigbopper Posted March 22, 2014 Author Report Share Posted March 22, 2014 so we got it wrong. thanks for the prompt reply guys. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
0 Woo Posted March 23, 2014 Report Share Posted March 23, 2014 Hi Guys, This is the process that I followed to come to the same conclusion as the people who have answered this thread. I found it an interesting example of how rules in two areas of the book can lead to different interpretations. These four quotes seemed to form the crux of the question and answer process in this thread: "Model a hits model b with a melee attack and gets a push trigger, the attack also kills model b. does model a still get to push model b?" - Bigbopper "What's the wording on the trigger. If it's after damaging then yes. Or succeeding or resolving." - Godlyness "The valedictorians ML attack. The trigger is transfer student "after damaging an enemy, push target up to 4" in any direction, then push this model into base contact with target model" . We played it that I can't happen as the target model was killed and needed to be removed immediately." - Bigbopper "The after damaging trigger explicitly says that the trigger is resolved before the model is removed. Seems weird pushing dead things but you can do it." - Godlyness I was curious as to where the trigger explicitly says that the trigger is resolved before the model is removed, so I checked the wave 2 card for The Valedictorian and the trigger in question: "Transfer Student: After damaging an enemy, push the target up to 4" in any direction, then push this model into base contact with the target." Right, nothing in there about the trigger resolving before removing the model. So I looked at how damage is applied on page 46 of the M2E book: "When a number of points of damage is taken by a model, it reduces its current Wounds by that amount. If the model is reduced to 0 or fewer Wounds it is immediately removed from the game as killed." At this point I could see no way in which a model that is reduced to 0 or fewer wounds by an attack, could still be on the table to be affected by a trigger that happens after damaging an enemy... Until I went back to page 32 of the M2E book and read the rules for declaring triggers... "After damaging: These effects happen after step 5 and only if the target suffers 1 or more damage from the Action. These effects are resolved before the damaged model is removed if it was killed by the damage." So it would seem that a model reduced to 0 or fewer wounds is only immediately removed from the game IF there are no after damaging triggers to be resolved first... It would have been good to see that noted on page 46 as well. Godlyness does indeed have the right of it. To reword his very correct answer in such a way that I don't confuse his meaning: 'The rules regarding triggers that apply after damaging explicitly state that the trigger is resolved before removing the model if it was killed by the damage. - pg32. M2E' I don't know if this will be interesting to anyone else, but I thought I'd post it anyway... Cheers, Woo. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
0 Morgan Vening Posted March 23, 2014 Report Share Posted March 23, 2014 Yes, the use of the word "immediately" in the Damage and Wounds section has caused misunderstandings in the past, mainly because it's apparently not immediately. It's shorthand for "immediately after the action is resolved". It's clear in the Rules that the Push does happen, at the page you mentioned (pg 26 for LRB). Which has lead to further questions (trigger resulting actions, healing, etc). But yes, that "immediately" definitely gummies up the works. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
0 Rathnard Posted March 23, 2014 Report Share Posted March 23, 2014 Interesting. I've been playing it that if the model is killed, the push wouldn't happen (ie. wrongly). So hey, you learn something new every day. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
0 Ausplosions Posted March 23, 2014 Report Share Posted March 23, 2014 Healing after being reduced to zero Wounds will still have a model removed. It has been reduced to zero Wounds, no amount of healing after that changes that fact, unless it has an "instead of" clause. Like Leve or Bete. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
0 The Godlyness Posted March 23, 2014 Report Share Posted March 23, 2014 No one knows the answer to that question ausplosions. and because no one has the answer i let it die. In My Opinion after the origanal action is resolved (the attack) the model has not beed reduced to 0 wounds (it healed) there for is not dead. Mainly since its such a corner case i don't foresee it happening and if it does let the players Skirmishing decide for themselves. (Collodi use Do my bidding trigger on a friendly model who which the attack kills it, trys t0 attack brewmaster takes a on the house instead. My bidding trigger on killjoy killing him but his one action kills another model and he heals. i dont think there are any other perform 1 actions afterdamaging triggers cept collodi.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
0 Morgan Vening Posted March 23, 2014 Report Share Posted March 23, 2014 Dang, I shouldn't have brought it up. My point was, the argument only exists because of the "immediately" bit being knd of contrary with the "but after all triggers are done" bit. The argument for the answer should not be reconstituted here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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bigbopper
As the title says. Model a hits model b with a melee attack and gets a push trigger, the attack also kills model b. does model a still get to push model b?
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