Ironsides' tactics and crew

[SteampunkCake]

Throughout the beta I've been really interested in using Ironsides, I love her concept and the idea of just charging your opponent no matter what and giving them a good hard beating. But I'm not sure on where to start with her. I'd LIKE to play her, I just don't know what would be a good choice with her. And yes, I've seen the mages, and quite frankly I resent them and don't really want to use them.

So, I need some help. Can any of you guys pass on your knowledge of the knee breaker and we can make a thread dedicated to the best tips and tricks for using Ironsides.

[Tograth]

OK, so Ironsides, depending on how you want to play her, can either be an ultra get in there and kick you dead beatshtick, or she can be rather mobile, taking out targets of opportunity pretty much as she likes.

 

 

A lot of her extra utility comes from her crew however. 

 

 

A core Toni crew for me would contain the following:

Toni + warding runes + challenge the crowd

Mouse

Captain + patrons blessing

oxfordian mage + blood ward

2 union miners

 

thats 24 points, but it gives you a very solid core. You have the miners for scheme markers and general beatsticks, the mage to buff Toni and give a heavy ranged oomph, and the captain to give you a lot of movement shennanigans and a very strong beatstick as well as quite a bit of utility with Windwall.

 

 

Mouse is there for healing, as well as a very hand auto trigger Drag trigger to pull someone in, most likely Toni or the Captain when they need to get out of Dodge. 

 

 

A very nice trick actually is to use the Captain to boost 3 of your people up the field, including Mouse. Mouse then rope tosses at the Captain, to pull him in. Either you get the Cap to just take it (in which case Drag autotriggers and its a double negative on damage) or you cheat a mask, and then the Captain is pulled into BtB with Mouse before getting his 5" push in any direction from Vapour Trail.

 

 

 

 

 

At first glance, Toni looks like she's pretty straight forward, but she has quite a few tricks she can put to really good use. With challenge the crowd and warding runes, Toni is really rather resilient against most attacks, although she is more susceptible to Wp based attacks.

 

some neat tricks with her include the following:

 

1) getting the Captain to push Toni into melee range with a group, so she gets the defensive buffs and when she activates can generate a chunk of Adrenaline

2) using Rush Em in conjunction with a charge to really put the hurt on something, then bamph to a safer haven within range, or to dive in and devastate a model from the get go.

3) You Lookin At Me. This spell is *gold*. It has so much utility and so much win, and all it needs is a 6 of any suit. Use this to reposition your guys, or to get them close enough to provide Toni support if you get her too far out in front. A nice trick is to use this to pull a Union Miner who is out of position closer to Toni, perhaps near the centreline, when you can then go for False Claim etc. And the best part? if needs be you can use it on an enemy model. With the high Ca of 7:tomes, you should be able to pull in even an enemy master if you so fancy. 

 

 

 

 

Toni works really well with an M&SU crew, and this includes a surprising number of models. Her base card has a really nice buff to their attacks and damage with the Hand Picked Men ability, and depending on what you are running this can be set up really nicely.

[Arkion]

I've been brainstorming Ironsides ideas lately. Please keep in mind I haven't playtested this - it's all theory - and I'd love feedback, too. Hopefully you find this helpful.

 

At first glance, Ironsides reminds me of what Mei Feng used to be in 1.5: A melee master with a bunch of triggers that gave her extra attacks, as well as some evasive maneuvers that were difficult to fight around. The designers really want you to use her Df trigger. In fact, I’d argue that if you’re not using her Df trigger, you’re not playing her correctly. Unfortunately, she needs a Tome to make that Df trigger worthwhile, so she’s super greedy for soulstones and Tomes.

 

Hand-picked Men is a neat passive ability, but because it requires your men to be wounded, it’s easy to play around: Your opponent needs to focus fire on a single model until it is dead, then move on to the next one. Spreading the damage around against Ironsides is a bad idea.

 

The upgrade Challenge the Crowd gives Ironsides “Bring It!” and is, in my opinion, mandatory. If there’s more than 1 enemy model within 2” and LOS, Ironsides gets ++ to her Df duels. This helps out a lot with those pesky Tomes. The other upgrades adjust her play style, giving her a ranged attack or a self-healing option – situationally useful, but not auto-includes, in my opinion.

 

If you’re bringing Oxfordian Mages, you always want to put Warding Runes on Ironsides. It’s not an incredible upgrade or anything, but it synergizes with the Mages’ upgrades if you keep Ironsides within 10” of them.

 

I also think Oxfordian Mages are less "6 points each," more "18 points for three." I'd want to take 'em all or not take any. If I were to run an Ironsides list at 50 stones, it'd look like this:

 

Ironsides [5 cache]

*Challenge the Crowd [1]
*Warding Runes [1]
Mouse [4]

The Captain [10]
*Warding Runes [1]

*Imbued Energies [1]

Oxfordian Mage [6]

*Nemesis Ward

Oxfordian Mage [6]

*Blood Ward

Oxfordian Mage [6]

*Doom Ward

Steam Arachnid [4]

Steam Arachnid [4]
Steam Arachnid [4]

 

At 50 stones, you’ve got room for generalists and objective grabbers. Ironsides leads an Arcanist crew that wants to deal damage, but the crew's overall offensive stats are merely average. The Mages have a Ca of 6 against Df; if you throw in some Steam Arachnids, you can lower the Df of something you really need to hit, and effectively buff your Mages. Incidentally, if you’re up against an enemy team with low Df, you’ve got the Arachnids as objective grabbers. The fact that they’re M&SU and can benefit from Ironsides’ “Hand-picked Men” is a bonus. Imbued Energies goes on the Captain, because in my opinion, he’s the most useful piece in the crew. If your opponent kills him, at least you get some cards out of the deal.

[Uktena]

GUN. SMITH.

[SteampunkCake]

With the avatar's rearing their big faces over the horizon, Ironsides' looks to be an auto include. (0)+1 adrenaline, +3 adrenaline when she manifests and the ability to heal and charge through stuff willie nillie

[brdparker]

I tried out Ironsides versus what was probably the worst matchup for her, Pandora. Here was the list:

Ironsides

- [Challenge the Crowd] :plus :plus to defense when in a crowd of enemies

- [iron Determination] (0) action heal

- [Warding Runes] Counterspell

Captain

- [Warding Runes] Counterspell

- [Patron's Blessing] (Casting Expert)

Ox Mage

- [Nemesis Ward] + to Ele Bolt. WR's get :plus Df against enemy leader

Ox Mage

- [Doom Ward] Blink trigger and WR's get Regen +1

Mouse

Iron Golem

- [imbued Energies]

Metal Gamin

 

I proxied every single model in the crew and only owned three of the cards. The rest were on my computer screen, but it worked out alright

 

I played her very recklessly, as this was my first time with, actually any of that crew, and despite that and all of Pandora's WP silliness... she lasted a hell of a long time before falling Turn 4. The Captain really shone in this matchup with the pushes and Relic Hammering the Hooded Rider to death (2-shot the thing).  The Ox Magi were wonderful for their ranged attacks with auto-trigger slow. I was happy to get a severe damage flip on Teddy with Good Shot, my Turn. I got smacked a few times with Pandy's Inflict, which does ping damage before I realized that the Ox Magi's Arcane Shield reduced damage to 0, which is amazing. Against a more melee-centric crew, I can see where Iron Determination's RJ shield is a useful passive with the (0) action. Hard to Kill definitely had its uses this game as well.

 

On the whole, I fricking loved the way this crew played (though I got crushed), and I fully intend on getting it when it comes out. I definitely need to find more push effects. I really like the captain pushing paragraph I read above, and I'm also thinking how cool raptoring Ironsides into a beast and Myranda-ing her to make extra melees could be a whole lot of fun. Lots of interesting playstyles to be had.

 

 

EDIT:

GUN. SMITH.

 

Also, reading over his rules... Yeah, really. That's some serious synergy you got there.

[Grim]

I'm using this as Mouse. I wish Wyrd would officially make it Mouse, it's one of their best sculpts. It's a shame that it has been collecting dust in the "Twisted" line.

 

http://wyrd-games.net/shop/The-Dwead-Piwate-Wuppwecht.html

[Jordon]

I tried her a lot over the wave 2 beta and I'm not going to lie, she died almost every game. That being said, her sacrifice won me the game several times as she can easily tie up some big nasties for a few turns. 

 

My suggestion would be to be patient. I know it looks tempting to rush her into the enemy as fast as possible, but Toni can surprisingly support her crew very well. Use "hand picked men" to weaken their lines with gunsmiths or mages and use their absorb as much adrenaline as you can through "protective" and try and farm as many tomes as you can. Once you find the right opening, charge her in with a few rail workers to tie up their lines while the rest of your crew accomplishes schemes. 

 

She's tough, but she's not an assassination master. She can't stand toe to toe with some of the other heavy hitters such as Lady J. As pointed out, her kyrptonite seems to be WP based attacks and crews such as pandora can really mess up your plans. 

[SteampunkCake]

okay what do people think of this list?

Ironsides 6cashe
-Iron determination (skeptical)1

-Frontline leadership 2
Mouse 4
The Captain
-Patron's blessing 2
Gunsmith 7
Gunsmith 7
Union miner 5
Union miner 5
Willie 6

Advise would be nice

[Jordon]

Thats a solid list to run with her. I would highly consider taking her "Challenge the Crowd" upgrade as it really helps get those tomes for her DF trigger, but thats only if your planning on running her down the throat of the opponent. Toni has a really tough time picking upgrades as they are all very good on her. Some other upgrades outside her own that is a high consideration is also imbued protection and energy. 

 

The gunsmiths are great to run with Toni, however they usually perform better with her "message from the union" upgrade. You may want to consider taking the Ox Mages as they are cheaper and their specific upgrades can really beef up Toni when taken with counter spell. I find their push power can be extremely useful to maximize Ironsides. They also allow your crew to spread out a little more. Most of what I see in your list will want to be benefiting from "hand picked men" and so you'd be marching around in a huge brick, but the mages don't mind playing far back and blasting away with their spells. As mentioned earlier, i'd probably take 3 if your going to include any. 

[Entrac]

I tried her a lot over the wave 2 beta and I'm not going to lie, she died almost every game. That being said, her sacrifice won me the game several times as she can easily tie up some big nasties for a few turns. 

 

My suggestion would be to be patient. I know it looks tempting to rush her into the enemy as fast as possible, but Toni can surprisingly support her crew very well. Use "hand picked men" to weaken their lines with gunsmiths or mages and use their absorb as much adrenaline as you can through "protective" and try and farm as many tomes as you can. Once you find the right opening, charge her in with a few rail workers to tie up their lines while the rest of your crew accomplishes schemes. 

 

She's tough, but she's not an assassination master. She can't stand toe to toe with some of the other heavy hitters such as Lady J. As pointed out, her kyrptonite seems to be WP based attacks and crews such as pandora can really mess up your plans. 

 

I have to disagree on the point that she can't go toe to toe against Lady J an her likes. With "Challenge the Crowd" and a little help from "Nemesis Ward" your looking at a 3+ df flip against the Lady and if she hits you, you hit her back and pump up your adrenalin. You should prepare for the RJ though, but we got an Upgrade for that. In the tourney this weekend Ironside managed to absorb a massiv hit from Lady J (yes, she hits hard) and just destroy her an the Judge with the Adrenalin from the Hit and her activiation. You can hit the Lady pretty good as you are sitting at an Ml 7 with Brass Knuckles and should have at least a Ml of 6 with the resulting Uppercut.

 

Non the less you should keep her back till you got some Adrenalin or really have to tie something up. Ironsides isn't that stable if your oppenent knows her and acts accordingly

[Jordon]

I have to disagree on the point that she can't go toe to toe against Lady J an her likes. With "Challenge the Crowd" and a little help from "Nemesis Ward" your looking at a 3+ df flip against the Lady and if she hits you, you hit her back and pump up your adrenalin. You should prepare for the RJ though, but we got an Upgrade for that. In the tourney this weekend Ironside managed to absorb a massiv hit from Lady J (yes, she hits hard) and just destroy her an the Judge with the Adrenalin from the Hit and her activiation. You can hit the Lady pretty good as you are sitting at an Ml 7 with Brass Knuckles and should have at least a Ml of 6 with the resulting Uppercut.

 

Non the less you should keep her back till you got some Adrenalin or really have to tie something up. Ironsides isn't that stable if your oppenent knows her and acts accordingly

 

Your certainly not wrong, but you definitely need to be prepared as you mentioned. Challenge the crowd is tricky because you'd need to engage multiple models so it's not a guarantee. I think in a strait up fist fight without all the bells and whistles, Ironsides is at a disadvantage. 

 

But really its not a huge deal if she might have a tough time with the deadliest masters in malifaux. You simply treat her like you would with any other master that fights her. Or if your really concerned then gang up on tough models. Even a modest union miner becomes a serious threat when combined with HPM. 

 

I'd also give the metal gamin a really hard look too. These guys generally don't benefit many of our masters, but they synergies extremely well with Toni. They're really tough and provide a good damage sponge for her protection spell. She goes up to DF6 and that can be a huge deal when combined with "challenge the crowd". Also they would benefit from her HPM as well as the bonus to their attacks because of their protection of metal on Toni.  I usually run at least two in all my lists because they're just awesome.

[brdparker]

Maybe I'm playing her wrong, but I'm finding myself having some difficulty using Toni to full effectiveness. I played Lilith the other day, and using Hand-Picked Men, my gunsmith and captain did a whole ton of stuff (a fast GS got Lilith down to a single Wd before she hid), but Ironsides pretty much did nothing. I think it was mostly that my opponent was spread out so it wasn't worth pushing her into base contact with only one model for adrenaline that would go away at the end of the turn anyway, but still... Is anyone else having this issue? Is it worth spending resources (like the captain's push) to get her in 2" of a single enemy for one Adrenaline point? Or even taking a full activation to simply get into engagement with several models, take a turn of beating, and then retaliate? And if it's not worth it, what's her secondary function other than simple HPM buffing (which is awesome, BTW, but not quite singular to the game)?

 

I'm also doing some more searching around, and other than the captain, I'm not seeing anything that allows a push in any direction except by dealing damage to her (the ox mages can be useful for that). Lures and other such things pull toward a model, but Toni wants to be at the front anyway, so that's not what I'm looking for. First turn totem pull is nice though. Is that what people are using? Mouse pull (which damages), Ox Mage push (which damages) and Captain push? Seems like a lot of investment just to get the crew's main trick off.

 

I'd like to keep studying this master and eventually do a tactica on her, but... haven't quite cracked the girl yet. Any thoughts?

 

EDIT: Looking at her again... She does have a 12" Ca 7 charge version of Lure with suit included that's chainable. Maybe that's something I should exploit the first couple of turns, try to lure activated models into position and then kill. Sort of a one-man modified belle lure. Hm...

[Archmage]

If you want/need Lure that desperately to get people into beating range, maybe hire an Oiran as a mercenary?

[brdparker]

Was thinking about that, but the issue is that it's a "push toward this model", whereas she needs a "push in any direction" effect. It's fine the first turn of the game when the Orian can walk and pull, but after that, Toni should be in the front. Unless you're talking about luring the opponents in, which would also work, and for 5(6) SS's, you're getting a suit-dependent lure, +1 Wp for most of your crew, a chainable 2 Ml action that looks pretty neat, and an upgraded Df stance model. Could work.

 

Next game I play with her, I'm gonna try to spam You Lookin' At Me? and see if that's the solution to the issue. I've got a feeling it is. If so, I'll need to figure out something to use against high Wp crews as well.

[Jordon]

I think the important thing to remember is your mission and schemes. The key is to "force" the opponent to come to her. Toni effectiveness can really be dictated by certain missions and schemes. She can perform fine in most games, however you will run into issues in certain missions that tend to space out the crews. One way to help mitigate that is to pick schemes that can be more centralized and tend to work well with your mission. 

 

I think trying to cram your list full of pull/push models is not necessary. Toni tends to have a pretty well rounded crew of melee, ranged and support. Gunsmiths and mages excel no matter where they are. The benefit of the smiths is that they don't loose out on effectiveness whether in combat or at range. The captain can easily give the whole crew cover, and the metal gamin can buff Toni and her smiths to a respectable DF6. Use the mages to easily pull them in the open (which shouldn't be difficult with furious casting and a built in push trigger) and then have Toni use her "you looking at me" to bring the party to her. 

 

Another thing is to try and change up your play style on Toni herself. She doesn't necessarily have to be in combat to be successful. Try taking her with "message from the union" and some gunsmiths for some serious pain. The fire ignores cover, and the burning allows the smiths to basically ignore cover, but still retain a + to hit. The mages provide her with a ton of benefits and provide support her multiple play styles through their triggers and runes. Have them stick close to Toni, and the opponent will almost have to come deal with them. 

 

Don't let her card fool you into thinking she's a one trick pony, as she has many layers to her that make her a very tactile master. Try playing around with her as a support master and I think you'll be pleasantly surprised with her effectiveness. It may not be apparent right away and it may take some time to get used to her, but once you do, she can be an extremely versatile master. 

[brdparker]

I think the important thing to remember is your mission and schemes. The key is to "force" the opponent to come to her. Toni effectiveness can really be dictated by certain missions and schemes. She can perform fine in most games, however you will run into issues in certain missions that tend to space out the crews. One way to help mitigate that is to pick schemes that can be more centralized and tend to work well with your mission.

 

Makes sense, I appreciate the advice. I'm seeing her as having two major styles of plays: support master like you said which I've been playing to... average effectiveness, I'd say, and the distracfion master, where she just bogs down everyone solo while the crew does other things uninterrupted. I think both are going to be pretty fun to play. Very good, I'll see what the objectives are the next game I field the girl.

[Bengt]

Have they said what will be in Ironsides crewbox (I guess Mouse and Oxfordian Mages are shoe-ins)?

[brdparker]

My guess (also hope) is IS, Mouse, x3 Ox Mages (as you said) with the Captain. We shall see...

[brdparker]

So I played the gal again last night versus Nicodem, and got a narrow loss, but felt more confident about gaining adrenhiline. I got a few extra attacks out of the deal, and her (0) push helped a whole lot when she was swamped. Still haven't found the sweet spot with her yet though.

 

One think I noted is that the Hanged absolutely runs her down, along with anything else that's Wp-resist based. Now, the Hanged are excellent models (hence their cost), but Nico can summon them without slow (or fast, should he choose) with a solid hand and a corpse marker (he had three at game end ). In the end, it was the Hanged's no-healing spell that done her in, Red Joker Wp cheat versus a Red Joker attack cheat, so it was chance that it was able to go off, but still don't know. Do you have any thoughts on what to do against that or other Wp-based silliness? There's not anything in the Arcanist faction/mercenary pool that gives a boost to Wp, is there?

[kross1]

Johan and the Arcane effigy both remove the condition that the Hanged give. Johan in particular is an excellent model for her, with his mass heal, and relic hammer. By the way your opponent could only have had 2 Hanged on the table. Due to them being rare 2.

[Bengt]

If Ironsides have Glimpse the Inevitable on her, will she heal 0 and lose a level of Adrenaline or will her Adrenaline just stay the same?

[brdparker]

Kross1, excellent suggestion. I'll look into the AE as a standard and Johan for another relic hammer and M&SU synergy is awesome as well. And good eye on the hanged, thanks. That's good to know for the future.

 

I also tried out using an electrical creation as an efficient way of damaging my M&SU's, and I think that worked well. The plan is to walk the models I need to damage in a group and when the EC finishes its first turn movement, they all take damage. After that, just walk it into the opponent's forces and soften them up. 4 SS's for plus flips for most of the crew and some early-game damage, it's not bad.

 

Bengt - to the same tune, do flesh constructs' poison tick away if they have no damage on them? (They heal instead of take damage from poison). I believe the it does, and the same would hold true for IS, but anyone have a second opinion?

[Gorbad]

The Oiran also give +1 wp to models within her aura.

[brdparker]

Played another game against Nico earlier.

 

Strat/Schemes were Reconnoiter, LiS, Distract, Breakthrough, Murder Protege, and Deliver a Message. Flank deployment

 

Ironsides is the perfect distracter. While the Ox Magi pushed back everyone else, she stay engaged with the same Flesh Construct and Punk Zombie from turn 3 onward, easily avoiding their attacks and making them not attempt disengage strikes (what would have been the point?). The setup did have me walk straight into a Deliver a Message scheme though . One of the Ox Magi went on a Murder Protege (Hanged) hunt, and eventually downed it (incorporeal doesn't help against casts, does it? ). I was able to keep Nico's horde confined to one quadrant for much of the game soas to keep his own reconnoiter points down, controlling one of my 2-3/turn with a single metal gamin.

 

A lot of fun. One thing I didn't factor in when I took the electrical creation (trying to wound my magi so they get the plus flips) is that the magi reduce the 1 Dg it does to 0 if they haven't activated. Oops. I'll set that up better next time. In any event, there were some cool things that happened that game, and I think I'm honing in on how to play the girl. I'm enjoying the challenge!