Mechanical Rider + Reactivate/Alpha

[Kevan]

I think the double summon may be too strong late game turn 3+. Should it be made a once per turn like the Spawn Mothers eggs?

[Mason]

I dunno...spending 2 Ap from your master to summon 2 models that take 2 damage each is the sort of thing that Ramos can do with 1 Ap, and Marcus doesn't really have as much synergy with constructs.  

 

Honestly, in most games I'd be happy that Marcus was using Alpha on the Rider and not a Cerberus or my own models.  It's certainly a neat combo, but I don't think it's broken. 

[CRC]

Reactivate on a 12 point model is always going to be very strong.

 

Have you considered what Howard will do with reactivate?

 

etc.

[Kevan]

I'm not only talking about Marcus alone, but thought I would include the possibility, Ramos's Totem can do the same thing.

I did not want to address the issue on a value of killing things like Howard can do. I want to address the AP and targets that the Rider can generate on a regular basis.
 

 

I dunno...spending 2 Ap from your master to summon 2 models that take 2 damage each is the sort of thing that Ramos can do with 1 Ap, and Marcus doesn't really have as much synergy with constructs.  

 

Honestly, in most games I'd be happy that Marcus was using Alpha on the Rider and not a Cerberus or my own models.  It's certainly a neat combo, but I don't think it's broken. 

 

Except Ramos can not summon Metal Gamin which are Hard to Kill and have Armor which almost demands 2 AP to respond to them.

[Mason]

 

Except Ramos can not summon Metal Gamin which are Hard to Kill and have Armor which almost demands 2 AP to respond to them.

 

 

Sure, but you pretty much need 2 AP to deal with two spiders, as well.

 

 

I'm not claiming that a reactivating Rider isn't going to be good, just that it's not much scarier than any other big model reactivating.  Both Howard and the Rail Golem can carve a swath of destruction with reactivate, so while the Rider can get a good swarm of constructs going, I just don't think that doing so is too bad in comparison.  Still good, and arguably more useful in some scenarios, but it should be, given the price you're paying to make it work.

 

Marcus has to - and please correct me if I'm wrong - smack the rider with his Shillelagh (1 ap) or purchase Feral Instincts (+1ss) and use Feral (free action) every turn to make the rider into a beast, and then spend 2 of his AP to Alpha it into another activation. 

 

So, you're spending, at best in a 5 turn game, 16 Ap and four free actions from Marcus to summon eight half-life constructs into play.  And the two constructs you get on turn 5 aren't really going to be doing a whole lot. 

 

It sort of turns him into a ghetto summoner...but again, he doesn't have great construct synergy, and masters such as Ramos and just about any dedicated summoner can do the same thing for less, without having to purchase a 12ss model to make it happen. 

 

 

 

Ramos has an easier time of it thanks to his Brass Arachnid, though that's going to eat a 10+ every time you want to reactivate the Rider, and presumably another AP to Rewire if you don't have the tome suit.  So, you're spending a 10+ card to summon a 4ss model...which is generally a bit higher than a summoner master needs to summon a 4ss model.   Granted, you don't require any scrap or corpses to do so, but you do have to purchase the 12ss Rider to make it work, as well as dedicating the 4ss Brass Arachnid to keeping the Rider reactivating every turn, so it's not really an economical combo. 

 

In return, you get, at best in a 5 turn game, 32 ss worth of half-life constructs from a fully reactivating Rider, which is pretty decent, but still well within the bounds of what other summoner masters can pull off, given the resources it takes to make her reactivate.   It's a good combo, and being able to summon more constructs is handy, but I don't think that it's overly powerful. 

[LupusFerreus]

Marcus has to - and please correct me if I'm wrong - smack the rider with his Shillelagh (1 ap) or purchase Feral Instincts (+1ss) and use Feral (free action) every turn to make the rider into a beast, and then spend 2 of his AP to Alpha it into another activation. 

 

A more efficient option is to take a Canine Remains to turn it into a beast Turn 1 which lasts for the whole game. The dog can then go do scheme stuff afterwards.

[Mason]

A more efficient option is to take a Canine Remains to turn it into a beast Turn 1 which lasts for the whole game. The dog can then go do scheme stuff afterwards.

 

That's a good idea!

[LupusFerreus]

Not sure if it was a Mk1 plan, but all credit does to sssk as I saw it on his "Play it like beatdown" blog.

[HalcyonSeraph]

Malifaux Raptors can also do that, for 1 point cheaper than the dog, though the dog is much more generally useful after turn 1.

[CRC]

So, you're spending, at best in a 5 turn game, 16 Ap and four free actions from Marcus to summon eight half-life constructs into play.  And the two constructs you get on turn 5 aren't really going to be doing a whole lot. 

 

I'm not sure I like that accounting, let me try:

First, the rider isn't summoning on turns 1 and 5. Turn 1 it can't, and Turn 5 it'll almost always be better off reactivating a model.

Second, the rider doesn't spend any AP summoning, it's a (0).

 

So, as a baseline, the Rider eats a 6:tomes, and 2 other 6s to summon three half-wounds constructs.

Marcus can spend almost his entire life, and three 8:masks (or SS equivalent), a 6:tomes, and 2 other 6s to summon three more half-wound constructs AND let the rider take 6 AP worth of regular try-to-win-the-game type actions.

 

This seems less good than taking two Riders (yes, I know they're rare 1). And, I think that if your finding that your master is worth less than a 12 SS model, such that you're seriously considering this plan, you need to be getting better mileage out of your master.

 

If you think the Mechanical Rider is overpowered, just say that. If it's not, the exact same argument applies to every high-cost model in the Arcanist faction.

[Mason]

I'm not sure I like that accounting, let me try:

First, the rider isn't summoning on turns 1 and 5. Turn 1 it can't, and Turn 5 it'll almost always be better off reactivating a model.

Second, the rider doesn't spend any AP summoning, it's a (0).

 

Reactivate usually is the better call, but I was trying to push the limits of the summoning to see the best case scenario for construct spam.  I was wrong on the 16 AP, though; it should have been 8 AP, from Marcus using Alpha four times.  I'm not sure why I doubled it.  >.<

 

 

 

If you think the Mechanical Rider is overpowered, just say that. If it's not, the exact same argument applies to every high-cost model in the Arcanist faction.

 

 

Um...I'm actually saying the opposite.  I think that the Mechanical Rider is just fine, and that giving her reactivate to summon more constructs ends up being a useful trick, but nothing that's all that efficient, on account of how much AP it eats up from Marcus using Alpha on it. 

[sssk]

I don't think you'd use the rider as a summoning model most of the time. However, on a turn when you need it, you could reactivate it to do an extra summon, and a 2 model swing might well be important. Pushing it to the extremes of what it could summon will always make it look very expensive (eg using over half of Marcus' AP, several mid-high cards, and possible soulstones for suits). If the summon is a zero, you also still have the rest of the rider's activation to do stuff with too (and reactivating big constructs tends to be a good use of your time).

 

On a Marcus note, personally I'd go for the feral instincts upgrade approach, or the raptor at a push... but generally I'd go feral.

[dgraz]

As a pretty hardcore Marcus player, honestly I don't think I'd bother. If my option is to Reactivate a model to summon more cheap models, or Reactivate something like Howard to kill a lynch-pin or powerful enemy model, I  think I'd rather have Howard.........I'm still up AP (due to you losing a model) and something you probably really wanted to keep around is gone.

 

Also, Marcus has a decent summoner if he goes for the Spawn Mother....which also keeps it in theme as she is a Beast.....and gives awesome buffs to the rest of the crew.

[Kevan]

Yes but spawn mother has lots of restrictions that an Alpha Rider doesn't. That is a hard comparison as the models are very different SS and Mother is a Henchmen.

[HalcyonSeraph]

The fact remains that it is not worth 2 master AP to roundabout summon a wounded 4ss model. The Rider gets a full activation, but compared to who you could be giving that activation to instead (Rail Golem, Howard) it's not a great use of Alpha.

[Kevan]

Ok. I gave Alpha for completeness sake. There are other ways such as Brass Arachnid to gain reactivation. Is the summon twice a turn too powerful is my question.

The Riders summons suffer 2 DMG but have a wide array of models it can summon very reliably turn 3+. It is a 12 SS model that is very objective oriented.

The Spawn Mother is 3 SS less but a Henchman and requires a suit to put a delayed summon token in play but when the 2AP action is taken the summons come in at full. It can't summon the turn it lays eggs. Meaning it can not get Alpha'd to do anything but put out eggs.

I'd say its reasonable to say the Rider is a much better summoner. It can summon Metal Gamin which are sometimes harder to put down then Gupps even with only 2 wounds. The reactivate on Rider can summon a lot of models which is stronger for objective based play instead of reactivating a kill piece model to do killing.

Its just a different approach that may not be stronger in all situations and matchups.

[HalcyonSeraph]

Ok. I gave Alpha for completeness sake. There are other ways such as Brass Arachnid to gain reactivation. Is the summon twice a turn too powerful is my question.

The Riders summons suffer 2 DMG but have a wide array of models it can summon very reliably turn 3+. It is a 12 SS model that is very objective oriented.

The Spawn Mother is 3 SS less but a Henchman and requires a suit to put a delayed summon token in play but when the 2AP action is taken the summons come in at full. It can't summon the turn it lays eggs. Meaning it can not get Alpha'd to do anything but put out eggs.

I'd say its reasonable to say the Rider is a much better summoner. It can summon Metal Gamin which are sometimes harder to put down then Gupps even with only 2 wounds. The reactivate on Rider can summon a lot of models which is stronger for objective based play instead of reactivating a kill piece model to do killing.

Its just a different approach that may not be stronger in all situations and matchups.

 

 

A different approach that is stronger than an existing option in some cases but not in others sounds pretty balanced to me. 

[MasterDisaster]

Reactivate on a 12 point model is always going to be very strong.

 

Have you considered what Howard will do with reactivate?

 

etc.

The Brass Arachnid can give H.Langston re-activate already though can't it? I've been on the receiving end of this and it isn't pretty!

[Dracomax]

Ok. I gave Alpha for completeness sake. There are other ways such as Brass Arachnid to gain reactivation. Is the summon twice a turn too powerful is my question.

TThe reactivate on Rider can summon a lot of models which is stronger for objective based play instead of reactivating a kill piece model to do killing.

Its just a different approach that may not be stronger in all situations and matchups.

Kind of yes, kind of no. killing models to prevent them from scoring objectives is a viable tactic. What makes Ramos, and to a lesser extent a reactivating Horseman, is that they can do both. Ramos can hire a bunch of heavy beaters and still do enough summoning to get objectives.

 

Marcus generally does not lack in the killing department, but Can have trouble in the AP/ survival department. It might be worth taking and reactivating once or twice to get a metal Gamin or two for node defense; When there is an area they have to hold.