Damage bonuses and trigger interaction

[Uktena]

So Attack Actions can benefit from damage bonuses from other models.  If an Attack Action has a trigger that does damage, does the trigger's damage also benefit if it's a separate damage flip?  Here's some examples to illustrate what I mean.  Pretend that there is a model providing a +1 Damage bonus to all these triggers:

 

1.  The Critical Strike trigger adds to the Action's damage, so in this case if the damage flip was 3 damage with the Critical Strike trigger the target would suffer 3+1+1 damage correct?

 

3. The Whirlwind trigger on the Viktorias makes separate Attack Actions on nearby enemy models, and in this scenario each damage flip would benefit from a +1 to whatever was flipped.

 

C.  Rasputina's Shatter deals no damage itself, but it's triggers can.  If one of the triggers is hit - does the damage total from the trigger receive the +1?

 

4.  What about Attacks like Doldrums that just inflict conditions?  I assume they would deal the +1 damage, but what about if there's a trigger - would it deal +1 on resolution of the Action and then another with the trigger?

 

 

 

[Bacms]

Not sure I am following what you are asking.

 

For your examples: 

 

1.  The Critical Strike trigger adds to the Action's damage, so in this case if the damage flip was 3 damage with the Critical Strike trigger the target would suffer 3+1+1 damage correct?

 

The target would suffer dmg 3 plus 1 for the Critical strike if you have a ram on your total. Not sure where you are getting that other 1, unless you have an in-built ram or a model that allows SS spent one for a ram. If there are any models that give bonus to that dmg you just increase the damage by that value. Can you give a specific action that provides this? 

[Uktena]

Not sure I am following what you are asking.

 

For your examples: 

 

1.  The Critical Strike trigger adds to the Action's damage, so in this case if the damage flip was 3 damage with the Critical Strike trigger the target would suffer 3+1+1 damage correct?

 

The target would suffer dmg 3 plus 1 for the Critical strike if you have a ram on your total. Not sure where you are getting that other 1, unless you have an in-built ram or a model that allows SS spent one for a ram. If there are any models that give bonus to that dmg you just increase the damage by that value. Can you give a specific action that provides this? 

The extra damage is theoretical in the case of all my examples, but Bite of Winter is a good candidate.

[Clement]

Your numbering scheme needs work

To summarize, triggers that are listed under attack actions are considered part of the attack action as they resolve. As such your examples 1, 3, and C all gain the bonus damage.

4 is more interesting though. The ability doesn't do any damage, so I don't believe it can do +1 damage. Either way, if an action and a trigger both do damage, they resolve at once, so you don't get to double dip on damage.

[DocSchlock]

 

To summarize, triggers that are listed under attack actions are considered part of the attack action as they resolve. As such your examples 1, 3, and C all gain the bonus damage.

Triggers originiate from the Attack Action as effects, but are not part of the Action itself, otherwise retargeting defensive triggers like Kirai's wouldn't have to call out Triggers as their own thing. Only Triggers that occur before the Action resolves -- so NOT after damaging, after succeeding, after failing, or after resolving -- would include the bonus damage. Critical Strike explicitly takes place while damage is going on during the Action resolution. The 'after' triggers listed above occur after the Action has resolved -- after Step 5 -- as pointed out in the rulebook.

[Uktena]

Triggers originiate from the Attack Action as effects, but are not part of the Action itself, otherwise retargeting defensive triggers like Kirai's wouldn't have to call out Triggers as their own thing. Only Triggers that occur before the Action resolves -- so NOT after damaging, after succeeding, after failing, or after resolving -- would include the bonus damage. Critical Strike explicitly takes place while damage is going on during the Action resolution. The 'after' triggers listed above occur after the Action has resolved -- after Step 5 -- as pointed out in the rulebook.

So as you understand it, Doldrums in my example WOULD inflict a point of damage, but a trigger like Ricochet from Sam Hopkins would not.

[Clement]

Triggers originiate from the Attack Action as effects, but are not part of the Action itself, otherwise retargeting defensive triggers like Kirai's wouldn't have to call out Triggers as their own thing. Only Triggers that occur before the Action resolves -- so NOT after damaging, after succeeding, after failing, or after resolving -- would include the bonus damage. Critical Strike explicitly takes place while damage is going on during the Action resolution. The 'after' triggers listed above occur after the Action has resolved -- after Step 5 -- as pointed out in the rulebook.

 

OK now I'm confused...

 

Big book page 21: 

 

If a trigger is part of a specific Action it is listed below the Action's description.  These are called Action Triggers and are part of the Action itself.  This is most common with Attack Actions.  The Trigger will modify the effects of the Attack (like dealing more damage or pushing the target).

 

Triggers on an action are themselves part of the action.  I suppose we have another way around this, that being that Action triggers (while part of actions) are not themselves actions.  As such they are not subject to things that effect the action itself.  So the bonus damage given by gamin for example still won't apply.

 

Still not sure about how an ability that gives +1 damage would interact with an ability that doesn't do any damage.  Not sure you can add one to something that isn't there.

[Uktena]

You can add +1 to zero and get 1.  The question is is that how you ought to do it.  I think the rules say yes.

[CRC]

Instinctively, I would say that if the Attack Action does damage, then it would get the damage bonus. Reasoning follows:

 

I think there is a difference between an attack that does 0 damage, and an attack that does not do damage. The former (if it existed within the game) would be able to take advantage of the +1 damage bonus. The latter would not.

 

And, given the way the Errata has fallen so far, I expect that it will be ruled that, in Malifaux, that there are no attacks that do 0 damage.

 

Note: This is a wholly different beast from what happens when damage is reduced to 0, or prevented to 0, but the precedent set there that those things are degraded to "does not do damage", does factor into the above.

[Uktena]

Instinctively, I would say that if the Attack Action does damage, then it would get the damage bonus. Reasoning follows:

 

I think there is a difference between an attack that does 0 damage, and an attack that does not do damage. The former (if it existed within the game) would be able to take advantage of the +1 damage bonus. The latter would not.

 

And, given the way the Errata has fallen so far, I expect that it will be ruled that, in Malifaux, that there are no attacks that do 0 damage.

 

Note: This is a wholly different beast from what happens when damage is reduced to 0, or prevented to 0, but the precedent set there that those things are degraded to "does not do damage", does factor into the above.

Pg. 38 of the big book; "Any Action a model performs which requires an Opposed Duel is considered an Attack Action."

 

The Ice Gamin's (0) Bite of Winter; "...until the end of the Turn, friendly models with Frozen Heart within A6 inflict +1 damage with Attack Actions."

 

Rasputina's (1) Freeze Over - Resisted by Df, is therefore an Attack Action and should deal +1 damage.

[Csonti]

Pg. 38 of the big book; "Any Action a model performs which requires an Opposed Duel is considered an Attack Action."

 

The Ice Gamin's (0) Bite of Winter; "...until the end of the Turn, friendly models with Frozen Heart within A6 inflict +1 damage with Attack Actions."

 

Rasputina's (1) Freeze Over - Resisted by Df, is therefore an Attack Action and should deal +1 damage.

 

Good rules lawyering but I'm pretty sure the intent was to give an additional point of damage to Actions that are actually able to damage in themselves. There is no explicit guideline in the book to cover this but we can consider the following part as a close example about the none vs 0 problem:

 

 

Minimum Values

All stats, other than Wounds, have a minimum value of 1, regardless of how many modifiers are applied to the stat. Models with a value of  "—" in a Stat do not have the noted Stat, and it may not be modified.

Yes, this is about Model stats and not Actions but I hope you can see the similarity: you can't add +1 to something that does not exist.

[Uktena]

I see the similarity, but similarity does not mean conclusiveness.  To say the rules as they are written are not right with certainty, and present a different part of the game that functions similarly but differently is a pretty big leap.   I was reading the rules from the book, rather than trying to divine the designers' intent.

[DocSchlock]

If a trigger is part of a specific Action it is listed below the Action's description.  These are called Action Triggers and are part of the Action itself.  This is most common with Attack Actions.  The Trigger will modify the effects of the Attack (like dealing more damage or pushing the target).

 

Triggers on an action are themselves part of the action.

 

I worded my response incorrectly above. Triggers are an inherent part of the Action -- they appear below the Action itself, after all -- but their effects are not guaranteed to be. My bad for poor wording, but that doesn't change the fact that only some triggers resolve as part of the Action, while others resolve after the Action.

 

The Ice Gamin's (0) Bite of Winter; "...until the end of the Turn, friendly models with Frozen Heart within A6 inflict +1 damage with Attack Actions."

When does that damage get applied? There's no timing on it, meaning it only applies if you would do damage in the first place. To put it another way, it doesn't have to say anything at all about whether it gets applied if you deal 0 damage; by wording it without a timing, it would only ever apply when you would do damage with the Attack Action itself.

[Doc T]

Was going to start a new thread but I think this is relevant here. If Rasputina using Shatter gets the trigger Demolish hitting a Master with three attachments would the damage be 9, 10 or 12 if Bite of Winter is in play?

[Eyefink]

To address the Bonus Damage question: the rules are written for people to take a common sense approach; an attack that does no damage would continue to do no damage even if it got a modifier. However, pg 46 of the rulebook might make it more clear. First, "how much harm a model inflicts on another model as a result of an Attack or other Action or Ability is represented as the damage (Dg) value." Actions like Freeze Over simply don't have a Dg value to modify. Then a bit further down the page: "If damage is modified by a static value (such as the Armor ability, or a Trigger), the final damage after the damage flip is modified." If there's no damage flip, there's nothing to add +1 to.

@DOCT: I believe the answer is 10. It's one instance of damage calculated based on the number of upgrades, then you add +1 to the final total.

[Uktena]

I worded my response incorrectly above. Triggers are an inherent part of the Action -- they appear below the Action itself, after all -- but their effects are not guaranteed to be. My bad for poor wording, but that doesn't change the fact that only some triggers resolve as part of the Action, while others resolve after the Action.

 

When does that damage get applied? There's no timing on it, meaning it only applies if you would do damage in the first place. To put it another way, it doesn't have to say anything at all about whether it gets applied if you deal 0 damage; by wording it without a timing, it would only ever apply when you would do damage with the Attack Action itself.

This is not right.  That's like saying a damage flip for 2 + Bite of Winter's +1 damage does 0 damage to a model that can prevent the first 2 damage from the attack.  The target takes the extra +1 damage despite the prevention, because the Attack Action's damage flip counts as 3 under the Aura's effect.

 

Was going to start a new thread but I think this is relevant here. If Rasputina using Shatter gets the trigger Demolish hitting a Master with three attachments would the damage be 9, 10 or 12 if Bite of Winter is in play?

10 Damage, for the same reason as above.  The damage is combined and then applied.  Otherwise a Henchman hit with the Shatter trigger could Soulstone to prevent each of the 3 damage in turn.

 

To Eyefink, I sort of agree.  To be clear, I do not want to have non-damaging abilities deal damage using bonus damage auras it's just how the rules appear to me.  There does not need to be a damage flip to add +1 damage, some Actions have a direct damage number and there's no flip.  Like the Shatter example.  I do think you make a good observation in that it is a modifier to a value.  If it's like stats that can't be modified if they don't exist (Like models that can't Charge), then that would make sense. 

[Thaarup]

Hmm, I am a bit mixed about it..I can see the point from both sides, but I think personally I would go with it only adds damage if the Attack Action actually have some sort of damage effect. Reason being that otherwise Rasputina could potentially damage her own crew when using Freeze Over instead of ignoring it because of Frozen Hearted... and I think that was the purpose of the interaction between those abilities. Also it could lead to the Ice Gamin damaging itself. 

[DocSchlock]

 

 This is not right.  That's like saying a damage flip for 2 + Bite of Winter's +1 damage does 0 damage to a model that can prevent the first 2 damage from the attack.  The target takes the extra +1 damage despite the prevention, because the Attack Action's damage flip counts as 3 under the Aura's effect.

 

I'm just not doing a great job with my wording -- being way too idiomatic and informal. "Do damage in the first place" meant make a damage flip, not actually deal 1 or more damage. Bite of Winter adds to the Damage after it is flipped for, so there's no opportunity for prevention or other shenanigans to occur beforehand. Once again, there is no timing stated, so any damage flip results are increased by the amount after the +, then normal damage steps occur (suffer / prevent, reduce to 0 Wound, killed, blah, blah).

[Uktena]

I'm just not doing a great job with my wording -- being way too idiomatic and informal. "Do damage in the first place" meant make a damage flip, not actually deal 1 or more damage. Bite of Winter adds to the Damage after it is flipped for, so there's no opportunity for prevention or other shenanigans to occur beforehand. Once again, there is no timing stated, so any damage flip results are increased by the amount after the +, then normal damage steps occur (suffer / prevent, reduce to 0 Wound, killed, blah, blah).

Ah. Yeah probably. I hope anyway.

[dgraz]

hmmmm.....posted in wrong spot....can't seem to find the delete post button yet.