Diving Charge vs. Augmented Jump

[MrDeathTrout]

I played my first game the other night and this question came up.

Von Schill's Augmented Jump: This model ignores terrain and other models when moving during a Charge Action. This model may declare a Charge Action when engaged.

Misaki's Diving Charge: This model may declare a Charge Action when it is engaged and may ignore intervening models and terrain when it takes a Charge Action.

At first glance they seem to be the same, but we decided Von Schill needs to have LOS to charge. Then ignores models and terrain when moving. Misaki on the other hand ignores models and terrain for the entire charge, so she does NOT need LOS to charge.

Is this correct?

Edited October 29, 2013 by MrDeathTrout

[Seregon]

I would say that it is indeed correct. Von Schill needs LoS, Misaki does not.

[Joel]

We have ruled that since misaki's ability doesn't expressly give her the ability to ignore LoS, then she can't. It may be wrong, but we always err on the side of caution about such things. Hopefully this will be cleared up in the FAQ In a couple of days time.

[Rhonlore]

I found both Von Schills and Misakis to be functionally identical, in that the both need LoS, but can end up anywhere after the charge as long as it is in melee range.

See Lady J's for why I think they need LoS.

Though I would hear an argument that "Taking a charge action" is a distinct reference to the declaration of the ability. It's just oddly worded when Lady J's explicitly ignores LoS.

Edited October 30, 2013 by Rhonlore

[MrDeathTrout]

Good points all. I still think Misaki ignores LOS and would counter with...

We have ruled that since misaki's ability doesn't expressly give her the ability to ignore LoS, then she can't.

True Misaki's ability does not expressly state she does not need LoS it does expressly state she "may ignore intervening models and terrain when it takes a Charge Action." The charge action says: "(2) Charge: Target a model within LoS. Move this model up to its Cg in a straight line. ...." Seems to me she would ignore terrain and models for all of the charge and determining LoS is part of the Charge Action.

Lady J's explicitly ignores LoS

Good point. I wasn't familiar with Lady J's ability until you pointed it out. I think this strengthens the argument for Misaki ignoring both. Lady's J's ability specifically states she does not need LoS, in essence ignoring intervening terrain and models only for LoS during a charge. Von Shill's ability specifically state he ignores intervening terrain and models only for movement during a charge. Misaki's ability states she ignores intervening terrain and models in a charge without restriction.

Edited October 30, 2013 by MrDeathTrout

[Rhonlore]

I think you might be right MrDeathTrout. I would just be happier with it if there was another instance of ignoring base rules when "taking" an action. I'm not familiar with another break like that.

I mentioned it in the first thread about this and I felt the wording was clunky.

[MrDeathTrout]

I think you might be right MrDeathTrout. I would just be happier with it if there was another instance of ignoring base rules when "taking" an action. I'm not familiar with another break like that.

I mentioned it in the first thread about this and I felt the wording was clunky.

Agreed it could have been worded to be more clear.

[Rhonlore]

MTG can teach us a lot about templating. For example, since Misaki's is the craziest one and does all three things we could use...

(I put the wording in Spoiler tags because the wording I am using is -very- different than what we currently have and I don't want any confusion based on my wording.)

Open Spoiler

Diving Charge: This model may declare a Charge action while Engaged. This model ignores LoS requirements when declaring a Charge action. This model may pass through terrain and other models during a Charge action.

And then we can break it down to apply to the other abilities

Open Spoiler

Blindfighter: This model ignores LoS requirements when declaring a Charge action.

Augmented Jump: This model may declare a Charge action while Engaged. This model may pass through terrain and other models during a Charge action.

Clean, clear and consistent wording is so important.

[Barnaberible]

There is another thread about this.

I believe Misaki needs line of sight as she ignores it while Taking a charge action, not declaring a charge action (which requires line of sight)

anyway, this all should be cleared up in a few hours when the FAQ is posted (hopefully)

[Adran]

Misaki needs line of sight - FAQ now up

[MrDeathTrout]

Yep, I was wrong. I'm a bit annoyed that the wording so so different for Diving Charge and Augmented Jump, but they are identical in function.

[some_scrub]

We actually got this rule wrong while playing at a local store yesterday. A von Schill player was playing on one table and a Misaki crew was playing on the other. After comparing the rules, we thought Diving Charge didn't require LOS. The most embarrassing part is that we actually had the FAQ printed out, but still missed it because it's under "Abilities found in Multiple Factions." It wasn't game-breaking though, and I certainly still had fun.

It's definitely a bit strange that these rules are worded so differently. As an avid player of both M:tG and miniatures games, this is something I wish minis games in general would pay more attention to. Thankfully, I think Malifaux 2E does a much better job of this than many other games I've seen, but this shows there's still room to improve.

[dgraz]

, but this shows there's still room to improve.

Always.