Obey and 'friendly'

[dgraz]

So, the call out box on page 31 states:

When a model's Actions are controlled by the opponent (for instance with the Obey Action) the model does not change which models are considered friendly, its friends are still its friends.

So (for example)..........Zoraida could Obey Ramos to 'Uncontrolled Detonation' on his own Howard Langstrom?

[mpangelu]

Other than obey not being able to be used on leader models, sure.

Exact spell:

(1) Obey ---stats---: Target non-Leader model immediately performs a (1)Action chosen and controlled by this model's controller. A model which performed an Attack due to Obey may not be targeted by Obey again during the same activation.

Edited October 1, 2013 by mpangelu

[hypoking]

That does leave binge, bleeder lash, and maybe a few I'm forgetting.

[dgraz]

Duh. I'm an idiot. Bad example I guess. But there are a few ways around that.

[hypoking]

It's a legit question. The funny bit is I think if Sybelle punches Ramos she can skip straight to having him off himself.

Edit: Hold on...

Stay with me here cause I think this just got insanely lolsy. The rules that cover spending stones to enhance a duel describe it as "Some models can spend Soulstones from the crew's Soulstone pool to increase their chance at success." Obey effects, as noted above, do not change crew affiliation though they do swap control. If you can get an obey affect off on a model that has the ability to use ss can you then start hemorrhaging stones out of the opponent's pool?

Keep in mind that for the purpose of enhancing duels the model is described as spending the rock, not the player.

Edited October 1, 2013 by hypoking

[zFiend]

So you could pull that off with Sybelle? *grin*

---------- Post added at 10:27 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:25 PM ----------

Duh. I'm an idiot. Bad example I guess. But there are a few ways around that.

Well it was not Marcus, so, we'll forgive you, just don't stray from the Trail anymore

[dgraz]

Well it was not Marcus, so, we'll forgive you, just don't stray from the Trail anymore

I see what you did there.

Marcus would have been a better example.

Marcus Activates:

(1) Howl

(0) Feral on Ramos

(2) Alpha on Ramos

Ramos Activates from Alpha

(1) Uncontrolled Detonation on Steamborg

(1) Uncontrolled Detonation on Joss

(1) Uncontrolled Detonation on self (Ramos)

Ramos player punches Marcus player in the face.

[zFiend]

Ramos player punches Marcus player in the face.

Seems like that would be the correct ending for the game.

[mpangelu]

Again, seems legit. Seems like that might want to be looked at by devs, or leave it as is.

As far as soul stones go, I think it comes out of the "controlling" not "friendly" crews pool, so you would use your own.

[Omenbringer]

I see what you did there.

Marcus would have been a better example.

Marcus Activates:

(1) Howl

(0) Feral on Ramos

(2) Alpha on Ramos

Ramos Activates from Alpha

(1) Uncontrolled Detonation on Steamborg

(1) Uncontrolled Detonation on Joss

(1) Uncontrolled Detonation on self (Ramos)

Ramos player punches Marcus player in the face.

Wasn't this also doable in the first edition?

[Tograth]

it was....and it lead to an a rather fast errata. The exception was that in first ed, Ramos had Perfect machine to allow him to ignore the effect, and the main issue was with drain souls, which got fixed.

[Justin]

I see what you did there.

Marcus would have been a better example.

Marcus Activates:

(1) Howl

(0) Feral on Ramos

(2) Alpha on Ramos

Ramos Activates from Alpha

(1) Uncontrolled Detonation on Steamborg

(1) Uncontrolled Detonation on Joss

(1) Uncontrolled Detonation on self (Ramos)

Ramos player punches Marcus player in the face.

This will concern me if someone manages to do it consistently.

[dgraz]

This will concern me if someone manages to do it consistently.

That was an extreme example, but with Marcus' potential speed, CA 7 compared to Ramos' WP 6.......one 8" walk, a 12 or 13 in hand and at the very least Ramos himself could be gone.....I think I could do that fairly reliably.

[mpangelu]

That was an extreme example, but with Marcus' potential speed, CA 7 compared to Ramos' WP 6.......one 8" walk, a 12 or 13 in hand and at the very least Ramos himself could be gone.....I think I could do that fairly reliably.

I really don't see it as an extreme. With three or more soulstones and at least an three 8+ cards, all you would have to do is as above, howl (-2 wp), get feral off (make ramos a beast now with starting cast 7 vs wp 4), then domesticate (negative to all flips) and alpha becomes so much easier (casting 7 vs wp 8 on a negative flip for Ramos). Or not do domesticate in which the initial resist will be 6's. But still the same thing.

Then it is a matter of are there 2 enemy constructs within 10" of Ramos that you want to kill, and Ramos himself, or hell just ramos himself 3 times to make sure it goes off.

I would not care if this would take every soul stone in my pool and card in my hand to do so. There is no one here who could tell me removing the enemy master and 2 other high cost construct models wouldn't be worth every bit of that.

Would it be a dick move, sure, would it go a long way to winning the game.. you better believe it. Here is the biggest question of all, what is to stop someone from doing it? Nothing. Sorry kid, you shouldn't of done all that to win. Why not, was something I did illegal? The answer is no.

There is no extreme in this, it is a plausible and very deadly combination.

[Adran]

I don't disagree that it it a valid combination.

Pulling it off once against an opponent will show it is good.

Being able to pull it off again against the same opponent when they are aware of it is the real trick to how powerful it is.

For Marcus being able to kill Ramos alone with it is certainly not too overpowered in my mind as there are several Masters that can Kill off Ramos in 1 activation from similar range. And being able to kill multiple powerful models with it is a Ramos Play error in my mind (certainly once they know it is possible).

[zFiend]

That will be a lesson learned and I doubt the same situtation will be repeated as Adran said

[Csonti]

For Marcus being able to kill Ramos alone with it is certainly not too overpowered in my mind as there are several Masters that can Kill off Ramos in 1 activation from similar range.

With the same high percentage reliability, relative low resource requirement and practically having only the don't let Marcus have LoS option as defence? I would be interested in concrete examples on this.

[zFiend]

With the same high percentage reliability, relative low resource requirement and practically having only the don't let Marcus have LoS option as defence? I would be interested in concrete examples on this.

Someone mentioned Sybelle and Comply trigger to be able to do the same.

[Adran]

HAve to check wording on the rules, but from last Beta I easily can do it with

Justice (2 stones, 2 severes in hand plus good rams, or even easier with a student of conflict)

Perdita (vengance bullet, trick shooting and diestro)

Viks (sisters in Fury and Mark of Shezull)

Taelor (Use her ram trigger)

Ototo (easier when damaged)

On the charge

Vonschill can get there startign from base contact (needs 1 AP to return to base contact)

Ice golem with Bite of winter up close by is doable. Best chance is probably imbued energies and in base contact to be able to focus your Smash.

Misaki has a decent chance with Stalkin Bisento

Mei should eb able to manage it as well.

[Csonti]

HAve to check wording on the rules, but from last Beta I easily can do it with

Justice (2 stones, 2 severes in hand plus good rams, or even easier with a student of conflict)

Perdita (vengance bullet, trick shooting and diestro)

Viks (sisters in Fury and Mark of Shezull)

Taelor (Use her ram trigger)

Ototo (easier when damaged)

On the charge

Vonschill can get there startign from base contact (needs 1 AP to return to base contact)

Ice golem with Bite of winter up close by is doable. Best chance is probably imbued energies and in base contact to be able to focus your Smash.

Misaki has a decent chance with Stalkin Bisento

Mei should eb able to manage it as well.

You were talking about similar range (in this case 8"). Some of your examples ignore this. Others can be shut down easily by blocking charge lanes. Vs shooting soft cover is a good resource. Probably you didn't take into account the option of using SS on a Df flip which grants on damage eliminating the possibility of having a straight flip most of the time. I don't sure that you calculated with Ramos' Df trigger either. Damage prevention? Etc.

All in all I can't see any of these examples as strong or reliable as the Marcus trick which only needs LoS and 8" proximity.

[Adran]

Trust me I looked long and hard for ways around Ramos' defense trigger. That is what makes it hardest for several models as if you don't have melee rg 2 then you only get 1 attack on the charge. I looked to try and gain a on the damage. Since I had Justice slaughter Ramos in the beta, she has lost her ease of gainign these plus flips, so its not so easy now for her.

I also looked to try and get to 14dg after armor for those 2 attacks. (figuring 4 prevention is avaerage for 2 attacks)

Focus can be used to counter Ramos extra soulstone ,

Perdita charging Ramos, gettign base contact and using her upgrades listed can get her doing 10 dg (ignoring armor) on the first hit on Severe. 7 on weak and Ramos naturally on a negative to Df flips. Even if she gets pushed away she can still get 3 attacks.

Bishop, Taelor, Killjoy, Nothing beast, Johan can all get +2 dg for an activation by being made a sister. Bishop can get 5 attacks for 8" away doing 4 damage a time on weak and ignoring armor for this with no trigger possible from Ramos. Taelor and Johan get :+fate vs RAmos and wil need to cheat in 2 severe for the kill.

Haven't calculated the odds, and board set up, as that is very dependant.

I have largely looked at being able to charge, which you are right is easier to stop, but normally by sacrificing position and/or other models.

Ramos can just buy counterspell to make Marcus struggle. Doesn't stop it, but makes it much more unlikely.

[Omenbringer]

I don't disagree that it it a valid combination.

Pulling it off once against an opponent will show it is good.

Being able to pull it off again against the same opponent when they are aware of it is the real trick to how powerful it is.

That will be a lesson learned and I doubt the same situtation will be repeated as Adran said

This was something that was also done in 1st edition and was repeatable. It was difficult to avoid as is the version we have now.