Jackhammer Kick Vs Fading Memory

[Thingster]

This problem came up a few times in my game last night. Jackhammer Kick states that regardless of the result, once the action is resolved you push into base to base with the target. Fading Memory states that when Pandora wins a willpower duel she pushes 4" in any direction. This problem came up a few times in my game last night. Jackhammer Kick states that regardless of the result, once the action is resolved you push into base to base with the target. Fading Memory states that when Pandora wins a willpower duel she pushes 4" in any direction.

So after Mei makes a Jackhammer Kick against Pandora and fails (far too often for my liking) and sets off Fading Memory does Mei push into base to base and then Pandora pushes away or does Pandora push away and then Mei push into base contact?

It gets a little confusing, as neither of the affects are triggers and it could be argued either way.

[MudgeBlack]

I believe when nothing else gives an order to things like this, the active player decides the order of the abilities. I could be wrong, just going off of memory.

[Rhonlore]

I would check the General Timing callout box on Pg46 for specifics, but it goes mostly like this.

Resolve triggers

Acting model resolves abilities

Defending model resolves abilities

And as far as I can tell, this would extend to the resolution of the triggers as well.

[Thingster]

Unfortunately my rulebook is currently making it's way through the UK postal system, so I don't have it to hand. I did wonder if the fact that Fading Memory states it happens once the duel is resolved and Jackhammer Kick is after the action has been resolved might make a difference?

[Rhonlore]

Ah yeah. My fault for not researching the abilities.

"Immediately" in the Pandora ability would seem to break the Timing Rules, so I would say Pandora pushes, then Mei Feng pushes afterwards.

Apologies again. Being a lazy rule person.

[Thingster]

Not a problem, I'm just throwing the question out there to see what everyone thinks, all responses are helpful.

[mythicFOX]

I don't have a hard answer but IMO;

General Timing only applies where two events happen at the same time. As I read the abilities they do not occur at the same time;

When this model wins an opposed Wp duel against an enemy model, immediately push this model up to 4” in any direction.

Target suffers 2/3/6 damage. Then, this model pushes directly into base contact with the target, even if this Attack Action fails or was taken as a Disengaging Strike.

FM pushes immediately when Pandora wins the duel.

JK says damage is resolved (or not) then Mei pushes.

Pandora has to win/lose the duel before damage would be applied. Jackhammer Kick pushes after the damage would be applied. Therefore the push from JK happens after the push from FM.

Meaning Pandora moves, then Mei moves.

That's the closest I can get to RAW here.

[therat]

So Pandora can't get away from a jackhammer kick, eh? That's good to know as both a Mei Feng and Pandora player. While that means she'll have trouble getting away from Feng, it also means she can possibly lead her around.

[Thingster]

I would think that by the wording of Jackhammer Kick, no one with a defensive push can get away from Mei.

[Silas Cordell]

I would think that by the wording of Jackhammer Kick, no one with a defensive push can get away from Mei.

What about Squeal? I don't have book/cards on me, but I think Squeal is after damaging as well.

[Daxxil]

Wouldn't the push from Jackhammer Kick occur during the Resolve Damage portion of the duel. As such, since the duel is not over yet, all of the defensive pushes would happen after the "push into base contact" effect of Jackhammer Kick?

[Thingster]

I did wonder about that, but it specifically says damage, then push. So it could be reasoned that if the trigger states after damaging it gets away, but it could also be reasoned that Mei's push happens after the entire action has been resolved. Very tricky.

[rgarbonzo]

This problem came up a few times in my game last night. Jackhammer Kick states that regardless of the result, once the action is resolved you push into base to base with the target. Fading Memory states that when Pandora wins a willpower duel she pushes 4" in any direction. This problem came up a few times in my game last night. Jackhammer Kick states that regardless of the result, once the action is resolved you push into base to base with the target. Fading Memory states that when Pandora wins a willpower duel she pushes 4" in any direction.

So after Mei makes a Jackhammer Kick against Pandora and fails (far too often for my liking) and sets off Fading Memory does Mei push into base to base and then Pandora pushes away or does Pandora push away and then Mei push into base contact?

It gets a little confusing, as neither of the affects are triggers and it could be argued either way.

Yes Mei's Jackhammer Kick fails and she pushes into base contact with Pandora who then can push away because whenever two Abilities happen at the same time the acting model resolves it's abilities first, then the defending model.

Pg 46 General Timing call out box for reference.

Quick reference for Timing

Triggers resolve first in the case of a tie Defender resolves first.

Abilities resolve next, in the case of a tie Acting Model resolves first, Defender second.

Edited September 22, 2013 by rgarbonzo

[Thingster]

In my mind this is how the actions progress, please correct me if I'm wrong.

Attack duel - attack fails - (Fading Memory activates) - any triggers from the duel- where the damage phase would occur - any triggers after damaging- (the push from Jackhammer Kick happens).

[Sixblades]

Both the jackhammer kick and fading memory abilities occur in the 'determine success' step of an opposed duel (pg 32). Two abilities happening at the same time....use the general timing table (pg 46).

Sadly, pandora pushes after mei.

[mythicFOX]

General timing only applies where two events occur at the same time.

It comes down to whether the step number is how you determine 'the same time' or if you further break the process down to the sequence of events inside the step. As clearly you can't do damage before you determine success, although both would occur inside step five.

Edited September 22, 2013 by mythicFOX

[Sixblades]

I apologize, I think I understand yourresponse now.

Resolving Actions (pg 37)

1. Declare action and spend AP

2. Perform Duels (pg 32)

a. declare soulstone use

b. flip fate card and add stat

c. choose to cheat fate

d. declare one trigger

e. determine success

if attacker wins, action succeeds. Resolve results.

if defender wins, action fails. Resolve results, if applicable.

3. Resolve results

Pandora's ability occurs at the determine success step. Jackhammer's ability, being part of the action, applies in the resolveresults step.

[mpangelu]

That is the way I see it. And it should be mentioned that none of the abilities mentioned are triggers. Fading Memory says when it wins an opposed WP duel against an enemy model immediately push.

Jackhammer Kick says if the action succeeds or fails push into base.

I see it as FM goes first since Pandora won the opposed duel. Jackhammer goes off after determining the success or failure of the action itself.

[mythicFOX]

@ Sixblades - That's how I see it working yes.

[Joel]

Sounds right to me.

[Daxxil]

I apologize, I think I understand yourresponse now.

Resolving Actions (pg 37)

1. Declare action and spend AP

2. Perform Duels (pg 32)

a. declare soulstone use

b. flip fate card and add stat

c. choose to cheat fate

d. declare one trigger

e. determine success

if attacker wins, action succeeds. Resolve results.

if defender wins, action fails. Resolve results, if applicable.

3. Resolve results

Pandora's ability occurs at the determine success step. Jackhammer's ability, being part of the action, applies in the resolveresults step.

Technically, since it says "When this model wins ..." wouldn't that be after you have determined success/failure of the opposed duel?

And since the two abilities happen immediately after the Determine Success step, since that is where success/failure is decided, of the opposed duel, the attackers effects must resolve first, allowing Pandora to push away after Mei Feng has pushed into base contact.

Edited September 22, 2013 by Daxxil

[Sixblades]

In my opinion, the use of 'immediately' in Fading Memory puts it in determine success step.

Damage (or not, in this case) and jackhammer's ability are securely in the resolve results step.

Edited September 22, 2013 by Sixblades

[rgarbonzo]

Except that there is no resolve effects step. Everything happens after determine success.

[Mach_5]

Yep. The "Determine Success" step includes resolution, damage, etc. The only things it doesn't include are triggers which happen "After Damaging", "After Succeeding", etc, as those are defined as happening after step 5 (Determine Success).

Fading Memory is in a bit of an awkward spot IMO, since it triggers "after she Wins an opposed Wp duel" (not After succeeding, which would be after step 5!). Technically you know she's won during Step 5 (Determine Success), otherwise you wouldn't be able to apply resolution during that same step (I really dislike that it all got lumped into one step... but that ship has sailed).

Jackhammer kick, if it hits, deals damage during step 5. It would then get the push regardless if it hit or not.

Since applying damage *must* come after determining who won the duel, and the jackhammer kick push *must* come after that, you know that you have already determined who won before the damage is dealt (or not dealt). So you know that Pandora won before Mei has a chance to push, Pandora pushes for Fading Memory, and then Jackhammer Kick finished resolving and pushes Mei Feng.

Note that the Jackhammer Kick push is still a push so it's in a straight line, so if Pandora is tricky she could push behind terrain or other models so that Mei Feng's push would fail and stop at the Impassable object.

---------- Post added at 08:26 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:16 PM ----------

Its unfortunate that Pg37 doesn't agree with the steps for the Opposed Duels on pg 32-33, but since "Perform Duels" on pg 37 directly references the duel process on pg 30-33, I think those more specific rules take precedence over the fact that Pg 37 then repeats a "Resolve Results" step.

[Sixblades]

Resolving Actions (pg 37)

1. Declare action and spend AP

2. Perform Duels (pg 32)

a. declare soulstone use

b. flip fate card and add stat

c. choose to cheat fate

d. declare one trigger

e. determine success

if attacker wins, action succeeds. Resolve results.

if defender wins, action fails. Resolve results, if applicable.

3. Resolve results

Pandora's ability occurs at the determine success step. Jackhammer's ability, being part of the action, applies in the resolveresults step.

It is important to note that the 'opposed duel sequence' is a subset of 'resolving an action'. The first paragraph of determine success basicly says if the attacker has met the TN and wins the duel, go to the resolve results step.

The first paragraph of resolve results:

After the duel is completed, perform the action's effects. The most common are dealing damage and movement, but other things can occur.

Jackhammer's ability is resolved after damage, if any, in the resolve results step.

Edited September 23, 2013 by Sixblades

[Mach_5]

Resolving Actions (pg 37)

1. Declare action and spend AP

2. Perform Duels (pg 32)

a. declare soulstone use

b. flip fate card and add stat

c. choose to cheat fate

d. declare one trigger

e. determine success

if attacker wins, action succeeds. Resolve results.

if defender wins, action fails. Resolve results, if applicable.

3. Resolve results

We're actually told to "Apply the results" three separate times.

Pg 33 Step 5

paragraph 1, If successful -> apply results

paragraph 2, If failed -> apply results if applicable

paragraph 4, "...then the results of the success or failure are resolved"

and

Pg 37 Step 3 Resolve Results

My issue is the Opposed Duel sequence as written includes resolution including damage and any other effects within Step 5 Determine Success. It is not simply referencing Resolve Results on pg 37 and it can't be because Pg32 says that the common trigger timings occur after Step 5. You cannot resolve a trigger "After damaging", which by definition happens after Step 5, if you haven't applied damage during Step 5.

So I think that Pg37 must be viewed as a broad overview of how to perform an action, and it would be silly not to point out on that page that you Resolve Results after you Perform Duels. But the actual step by step rules for how to perform the duels and apply results are given on pg 30-33.

---------- Post added at 06:53 AM ---------- Previous post was at 06:46 AM ----------

Regardless, since Damage comes after Determining Success (no matter which way you look at it) and the Jackhammer kick push happens after that, Fading Memory must trigger before the damage (if applicable) and certainly before the Jackhammer kick Push.