Killing Bad Juju (M2E)

[coolguyclay]

This concerns killing Bad Juju and his Eternal upgrade. Based of the beta wording, unsure if it changed.

The upgrade reads, "If Bad Juju is killed, then bury him, heal him, blah blah blah."

What came up was a Reckoning Strategy ("if two models are killed in the same turn") and/or the Executioner's Loves His Job ability ("when this models kills a model"). Would killing Bad Juju trigger those rulings?

I'd like to think it does. juju's upgrades states "when he is killed" comma, "then, ..." So it might seem like him being killed was accomplished, allowing his personal trigger to take effect. Along with other effects.

Said another way, killing him is the global trigger and anything caused by "killing a model" takes effect, including his own ability to heal, bury, etc.

Thoughts?

[rgarbonzo]

The way the upgrade card reads that when Juju is killed (not sacrificed), it is not killed. Instead bury him. Blah blah. So anything that takes effect on killing wouldn't work since he is not killed just buried. My 2 cents anyway...

[ClkwrkBldr]

The new rulebook states his Eternal ability this way:

Eternal: This model may begin the game buried instead of being deployed. When this model is killed (not sacrificed), it is not killed. Instead, bury this model. Remove all Conditions and heal all damage on this model.

So, since he isn't actually killed, just buried and healed of all effects, I would say he doesn't trigger any ability that needs a "killed" requirement to trigger an effect/ability. So the Reckoning Strategy would require you to Kill another model, and the Executioner would not get to Heal.

[coolguyclay]

So no love for the "killing Bad Juju triggers all effects, including his own 'bury himself' effect"?

I can really see it either way, but wanted to check. Great ability for that Strategy, I'd say (or just all the time, really ;-) )

[Myth]

The new rulebook states his Eternal ability this way:

Eternal: This model may begin the game buried instead of being deployed. When this model is killed (not sacrificed), it is not killed. Instead, bury this model. Remove all Conditions and heal all damage on this model.

I really wish that was worded to say "When this model would be killed". As it is, by a strict reading of the rules, it sounds like if another model's ability (which would also trigger on him being killed) has precedence in terms of timing, they could trigger stuff prior to him getting to trigger his effect that makes him not count as killed.

Which I don't think is the intent, but might require a FAQ somewhere down the road...

[G3ck0___]

Wel my thoughts on this would be bad juju is killed, but instead of removing him of gameplay (killed) he doesn't count as killed(not removed rom gameplay), but is just buried and healed. So the trigger of being killed triggers the next part of the sentence for the upgrade for bad juju.

Fluf wise this could be seen as just shoveling a heap of dirt, smoothening it out but it isn't gone. the mud golem might just reapear.

For Bete noir the wording is different for her ability Death Rattles: ....reduced to 0 wounds... ... before counting as killed. If the acction succeeds, this model is not killed.

So here its clear she is not killed but healed and buried.

so triggers for the executioner would work imho.

But hey, it's for a rules marchal to decide...

[Joel]

So no love for the "killing Bad Juju triggers all effects, including his own 'bury himself' effect"?

I can really see it either way, but wanted to check. Great ability for that Strategy, I'd say (or just all the time, really ;-) )

Of course, this only really works well if he has a way of Unburying again - if he is buried at the end of the game, he counts as killed.