Optional complexity, or imaginary complexity

[ooshawn]

First off, The only master's that I really play often are ones that have a lot of different interactions. Zoraida, pandora, dreamer, collodi. You take all the text on their cards away and give me super generic abilities and limit their interactions... You have effectively murdered this game for me.

So, what I want to know is, is there optional complexity to the point where I can get all the interactions that the master's used to have? Or is Wyrd just trying really hard to not admit they are gonna have to dumb down the game.

This Mack guy, doesn't seem like a tournament gamer at all. I imagine him being a D&D 4.0 player and just like... Loving that ****. No offense. I really hate D&D 4.0 and games workshop as a Side note.

[HalcyonSeraph]

First off, The only master's that I really play often are ones that have a lot of different interactions. Zoraida, pandora, dreamer, collodi. You take all the text on their cards away and give me super generic abilities and limit their interactions... You have effectively murdered this game for me.

So, what I want to know is, is there optional complexity to the point where I can get all the interactions that the master's used to have? Or is Wyrd just trying really hard to not admit they are gonna have to dumb down the game.

This Mack guy, doesn't seem like a tournament gamer at all. I imagine him being a D&D 4.0 player and just like... Loving that ****. No offense. I really hate D&D 4.0 and games workshop as a Side note.

It sounds like you have already made up your mind. What do you expect people to say? If they say "No, it'll still be there, it's just streamlined", you're already rolling your eyes and saying "yeah, sure". Or they will say "No, its totally dumbed down" and you say "I KNEW IT!".

For the record, I am a competitive tournament gamer and I love D&D 4th. I played and enjoyed 3.5 too, but if you think 4e was "dumbed down" rather than "streamlined and improved" then you maybe won't like other games that get streamlined and improved, or removing useless complications. They aren't going to "take your text away and give you generics", that's just silly.

[Forar]

I imagine him being a D&D 4.0 player and just like... Loving that ****. No offense. I really hate D&D 4.0 and games workshop as a Side note.

A) Mack stated that 4.0 was one of the influences he was looking at while working on Through the Breach (along with the Dresden Files RPG and others). So, yeah, I guess he probably is a 4.0 player, and I sure hope he loves what he plays. Why play things you hate?

2) I love me some 4.0, so it's always funny to me when people note it as a negative. Like, hey, if you hate it that's cool. Just the juxtaposition of "Man, 4E? :-( " whereas I'm all "Man, 4E? :-D )

Edit: not looking to start an edition war, of course. People are of course fully entitled to their preferences, and we have a good couple of pages on a thread debating the pros and cons of recent systems that already exists, if someone wishes to debate the matter I recommend at least chewing through that first, save us all a bunch of time. Be happy to pick it up again, though.

[ooshawn]

I still play 3.5 actually. 4.0 took all the flavor out of the wizard, druid, and most of the other casting classes. The game went from having damn near limitless options, to being a really simple skirmish game where every class was balanced to the point of being completely boring. Every single class did the exact same damage for the most part.

[HalcyonSeraph]

I still play 3.5 actually. 4.0 took all the flavor out of the wizard, druid, and most of the other casting classes. The game went from having damn near limitless options, to being a really simple skirmish game where every class was balanced to the point of being completely boring. Every single class did the exact same damage for the most part.

I am not going to derail the thread with a D&D argument that has been going on for 5 years now, but suffice it to say that lots of people agree with you, and lots of other people think those are completely wrong statements.

[Soul Puppet]

The only master's that I really play often are ones that have a lot of different interactions. Zoraida, pandora, dreamer, collodi.

I read that line and immediately thought "Neverborn cuddled"!

Joking aside though, I think you may be overly worrying about the changes.

[Forar]

In case anyone were interested in the debate already had (and found in a very odd spot):

http://www.wyrd-games.net/showthread.php?41095-The-D-amp-D-Edition-Thread-(That-I-Should-Have-Made-Sooner)

There, hopefully we can stem some of the tide.

[DeusInnomen]

A) Mack stated that 4.0 was one of the influences he was looking at while working on Through the Breach (along with the Dresden Files RPG and others). So, yeah, I guess he probably is a 4.0 player, and I sure hope he loves what he plays. Why play things you hate?

2) I love me some 4.0, so it's always funny to me when people note it as a negative. Like, hey, if you hate it that's cool. Just the juxtaposition of "Man, 4E? :-( " whereas I'm all "Man, 4E? :-D )

This. I really don't get the hatred vented at 4th Edition D&D. When I ran a 4th Ed game, certainly my players spent the first game or two saying "I'm not sure about this" because they were new to the system. By the 4th or 5th game they were all having a great time and even the person who was against 4th Edition said "Okay, this is actually fun and different." Everyone's entitled to their opinion, but it bothers me when people wield that opinion as a weapon to attack others simply for thinking differently.

Truth be told, this game isn't just about the hardcore tournament players. My wife got us into this game in the first place, but the complexity of the abilities started to detract from her enjoyment of the game. Even I have a hard time remembering every single trigger, ability and spell when I have a field full of really complex characters. What we're looking at going forward will be good for the game overall, especially for the newer players who aren't on the same level as the amazing tournament players I witness at the events I attend.

It's best that we reserve our judgments until everyone can see the beta rules that are still subject to revisions and play a few games to see what we think. Reflexive reactions like this are somewhat natural but aren't helpful.

[ooshawn]

that's probably a large portion of why i'm upset. I started rasputina who was supposed to get better as the game went on... Then switch to mostly neverborn after book 3. Now they are probably gonna murder the faction I play the most.

---------- Post added at 10:45 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:41 AM ----------

I can see some people have to look at their cards more than others, and it's a burden for them. But that's the same argument that would keep intelligent children out of advanced classes or some similar situation. For people who are having trouble, just play guild. For those of us that love awesome ****, we play neverborn.

[HalcyonSeraph]

that's probably a large portion of why i'm upset. I started rasputina who was supposed to get better as the game went on... Then switch to mostly neverborn after book 3. Now they are probably gonna murder the faction I play the most.

Why do you assume that? Do you just not trust Wyrd? If so why do you even play this game? I stopped playing 40k when it became clear that I thought the worst of GW's practices and was proven right over and over. I don't trust them, and I don't feel comfortable buying models from them because I know in 6 months they will be cuddled and I'll need to buy new ones, or tanks or flyers or whatever.

Wyrd has not done that to me, and so I have no reason to believe they will. If they do it right, and I have no reason yet to believe they will not, Rasputina will be made viable and the neverborn will not be murdered. They'll be roughly as good as other masters, in varying ways with varying levels of complexity and different specialties. You have already decided they are going to ruin stuff, so I'm not sure what they could say to make you happy at this point.

I can see some people have to look at their cards more than others, and it's a burden for them. But that's the same argument that would keep intelligent children out of advanced classes or some similar situation. For people who are having trouble, just play guild. For those of us that love awesome ****, we play neverborn.

Haha, ok yeah we're done here.

Edited May 1, 2013 by HalcyonSeraph
responded to later edit

[DeusInnomen]

that's probably a large portion of why i'm upset. I started rasputina who was supposed to get better as the game went on... Then switch to mostly neverborn after book 3. Now they are probably gonna murder the faction I play the most.

It's a reasonable fear. I'm not saying it's founded, but everybody has their favorites. Being a Guild and Outcast player, I'm really interested to see how things shake out for them. I think Wyrd's done a good job writing better rules as the books have progressed, I was really happy with the feel of the Book 4 models. And don't think I'm lashing out at ya, either. I've just learned to not get upset until I have all of the information in front of me. There's too much else in life that I'm too busy being stressed about! heh

[nix]

I have seen lots of references to how much trust Wyrd has built with the player base and have always been on the front end of championing Wyrd. I think the part that has me most worried is one of the comments on the Through the Breach interview with Justin.

It sounds like the people who did the writing for the first 4 books (Keltheos and NerdElemental) were only involved in the initial draft of the V2 rules, and now they are not. I certainly understand the reasoning Justin gave (They just were not in synch with the full time guys in the office making constant changes) but it still worries me. The people who brought the game this far and built up the trust are no longer driving the boat. I certainly think there are reasons to be worried that the new developers could steer us in a different direction than has been taken up to now.

[Jewomie]

. And don't think I'm lashing out at ya, either. I've just learned to not get upset until I have all of the information in front of me. There's too much else in life that I'm too busy being stressed about! heh

I have to agree with Deus here. we can speculate all we want but in reality we just have to wait and see what the beta holds.

Only 30 days to go!

Edited May 1, 2013 by Jewomie

[ooshawn]

actually I don't trust Wyrd after Games workshop and D&D 4.0. Yeah, and that mack guy even said he couldn't get the job done himself, so he had to bring in someone that came up with a lot of the Rogue trader and deathwatch RPGs. He is basically admitting, "hey, I really can't do this, someone else give me your idea's please"

Edited May 1, 2013 by ooshawn

[HalcyonSeraph]

actually I don't trust Wyrd after Games workshop and D&D 4.0

Wyrd has nothing at all to do with GW or WotC. Do you just not trust anyone to ever make a change you like?

I have seen lots of references to how much trust Wyrd has built with the player base and have always been on the front end of championing Wyrd. I think the part that has me most worried is one of the comments on the Through the Breach interview with Justin.

It sounds like the people who did the writing for the first 4 books (Keltheos and NerdElemental) were only involved in the initial draft of the V2 rules, and now they are not. I certainly understand the reasoning Justin gave (They just were not in synch with the full time guys in the office making constant changes) but it still worries me. The people who brought the game this far and built up the trust are no longer driving the boat. I certainly think there are reasons to be worried that the new developers could steer us in a different direction than has been taken up to now.

I think that's fair. Trepidation is reasonable. But on the other hand, a company's trust is based on more than just the specific people writing the book. And trepidation is reasonable, but just assuming the game is ruined is less so.

Edited May 1, 2013 by HalcyonSeraph

[nix]

actually I don't trust Wyrd after Games workshop and D&D 4.0

I'm not sure that's fair Ooshawn... Wyrd is certainly not Hasbro/Wizards nor Games Workshop. As an ex-GW player who felt burned by GW because I was their customer, I have not felt that from Wyrd yet. I think Wyrd deserves the chance to succeed or fail in maintaining our trust all on thier own. They certainly communicate much more openly than GW ever has.

[HalcyonSeraph]

actually I don't trust Wyrd after Games workshop and D&D 4.0. Yeah, and that mack guy even said he couldn't get the job done himself, so he had to bring in someone that came up with a lot of the Rogue trader and deathwatch RPGs. He is basically admitting, "hey, I really can't do this, someone else give me your idea's please"

I cannot see bringing in more people as anything but a positive. I would be a lot more worried if one person, Mack or anyone else, insisted on writing the whole thing himself.

[ooshawn]

I think it would be more comforting to have NerdElemental and Keltheos more in charge, than this guy. Though he seems like he could make a good scape goat. I would be more interested if they said they wanted to take the direction in the way of pathfinder. Similar system just more balanced.

Edited May 1, 2013 by ooshawn

[Nathan Caroland]

If you feel the need to holler and shout - feel free to. Trust us or don't - we're not begging folks to do so and quite frankly everyone is entitled to their opinion.

That said, the open beta will be coming up here soon enough, take a look at it when you have the time and then form your opinion. We hope you enjoy it and find it that it adds to the game, but most certainly we understand there will be folks that don't care for the changes either, and that'll be your chance to speak up.

Of course we'll hear everyone a bit better if its calm and measured vs. rage and vitriol (not that that is the case here, just a general statement).

actually I don't trust Wyrd after Games workshop and D&D 4.0. Yeah, and that mack guy even said he couldn't get the job done himself, so he had to bring in someone that came up with a lot of the Rogue trader and deathwatch RPGs. He is basically admitting, "hey, I really can't do this, someone else give me your idea's please"

[ooshawn]

I don't think anybody was hollering and shouting, typically exclamation marks denote that sort of thing. Of which there weren't any in my posts. I agree we all need to express our opinions as clearly as possible, seeing as how it's the internet.

[Gruesome]

actually I don't trust Wyrd after Games workshop and D&D 4.0. Yeah, and that mack guy even said he couldn't get the job done himself, so he had to bring in someone that came up with a lot of the Rogue trader and deathwatch RPGs. He is basically admitting, "hey, I really can't do this, someone else give me your idea's please"

That seems like an odd attitude to have. Getting help from knowledgeable people seems like a smart thing to do when there is more than you can handle.

Every single assumption you make seems to be "whats the worst thing that can happen?".

I am sure there will be all sorts of things that people disagree with in the next version.

Some things will likely be because people hate change.

Some things will be because BROKEN STUFF from v1.0 is hopefully not broken anymore.

Some things will be based upon personal preferences and interests. (Probably most things here)

And maybe some things turn out to not be as good as they could or should be...

But in the history of Wyrd, for the first time, you have been told that you get to HELP IN THE PROCESS!

As I said to start, seems like an odd attitude to me.

I remember when Sandwich had such a visceral reaction to book 4 early info and felt that Rezzers were shafted and Neverborn got all the best stuff again...

Obviously you are not in that ballpark, but it does seem like you are judging pretty quick with little or no information.

[nix]

Of course we'll hear everyone a bit better if its calm and measured vs. rage and vitriol (not that that is the case here, just a general statement).

But Nathan... the internet is made of Rage and Vitriol....

*grin*

[ooshawn]

I suppose I can wait till the end of the month and see how things look. I'm all for balance myself as long as the flavor of the game doesn't completely change.

[HalcyonSeraph]

But Nathan... the internet is made of Rage and Vitriol....

*grin*

I choose to interpret his statement as a teaser for new woes named Rage and Vitriol.

[Nathan Caroland]

Ooooh ...