Starting Leviticus?

[D-A-C]

Hey everyone.

Basically my nephew started Leveticus so I was just wondering how this crew looks for 25ss? That simple really lol:

Leveticus - 3ss

Rusty Alyce

x1 Canine Remains (to kill to get 2nd Hollow Waif)

x4 Steam Punk Abominations

(1 Desolation Engine model in reserve to be brought in to replace the 4 SPA at the right time)

Basically that's his pool of models starting out. I was just wondering is that ok to learn Leveticus with, or are there one or two models that would be worth getting to add to his potential pool of crew members.

Thanks.

[Drool_bucket]

Hello and welcome to the Desolate World of Leveticus! I recently started into it myself....

So, the general theory with Levi is that SPAs just aren't worth hiring. You will get more than a few through gameplay and they, for the most part, are a really weak 3 SS model, so by "wasting" SS on them you are weakening your starting Crew. While having the models (and the D.Engine) is a good thing, starting with them on the table is another.

But, to answer your direct questions, "Is this okay to learn Levi with?" then yes, by all means its good. My suggestion would be to get at least another blister of SPAs for when Levi starts making more.

However, I would sideline those and hire some other models instead to play the game with.

If you like Constructs, then both the Soulstone Miner[Arcanists] and the Watcher[Guild] are nice constructs to start with. I consider both of them Levi regulars.

If you like Undead, then Rotten Belles[Ressers] can help by pulling (via Lure) models within Levi's 13" range of (almost) Certain Death (and become a SPA).

Finally, you can't go wrong with Ashes and Dust[Outcasts]. As far as I'm concerned he is just perfect for a Levi crew. He brings speed, plays into the "unkillable" mindset of the crew and offers so much synergy with Rusty Alice and all the SPAs that you'll be making. The SPAs become a resource for A&D to maximize it's usefulness.

Good luck... make sure your nephew is using the v3 card of Levi's and take the time to learn his rules, because Levi's gameplay is a little off compared to the more normal crews out there!

Edited March 18, 2013 by Drool_bucket

[Trevelyan]

That is a perfectly good crew to learn with, but won't be very competitive, and the value really depends on what sort of crew(s) your nephew expects to be facing on a regular basis.

The Canine remains is something that the vast majority of Levi players picks in a competitive environment, but you can get by in 25ss games without one much of the time (I did passably well in a recent tournament playing Levi with just one waif).

The real value in having one waif and no canine remains is that you learn how to play well with what you have. Levi is perfectly capable of creating another waif during play without a canine remains, the dead dog just lets him do it for minimal resources on the first turn (you can kill a SPA for a corpse counter for only 1ss more if necessary).

My advice would be for your nephew to play with just the starter box and a Desolation Engine to summon for a couple of games until he is happy with the way it works. Get him to practice creating his second waif form what the opponent brings to the table, and have him master the art of shifting SPAs around en mass behind cover until they can pounce. Those are both basic Levi skills which he will need no matter how diverse his crew.

After that, or sooner if he is up against more competitive players, he absolutely should look into the canine remains and drop most of the SPAs. Ashes & Dust would be my wholehearted recommendation for a 13ss replacement (expensive, yes, but worth every stone).

Minions like the Soulstone Miners were much more potent before the bury errata and while they have some use (hunting Guild Austingers for one) they aren't so great as they once were.

People often recommend Bette Noir. She is another minion who got cuddled by the bury errata but is still a solid choice in some games.

The Watcher is frequently useful, but is likely to die early so wouldn't be my first choice for a beginner. Longer term it makes a good objective grabber and can help Levi with his ranged Unnatural Wasting spell against targets in cover, but isn't essential to the crew.

I would be inclined to go with Lazarus for some extra ranged support and a minion who can benefit from being around other constructs. Lazarus is also pretty robust, which helps.

[D-A-C]

Thanks guys, we actually had our first game using Leveticus yesterday.

25ss Seamus vs Leveticus.

He had:

Leveticus - 5ss

Hollow Waif

Rusty Alyce - 8ss

x4 SPA's -12

vs my:

Seamus - 3ss

x2 Rotten Belles

x2 Crooked Men

Outcast Gunslinger

Desperate Merc

It was shared Line in the Sand and for the purposes of the encounter I decided that having two SPAs beside one another could make them significant (this should probably be a rule anyway!) otherwise he would have barely any models for objectives.

I must admit I was very, very impressed with the crew. Although I think he needs to learn that the crew is supposed to die so just be casual about throwing Leveticus to the wolves and coming back again and again, but that'll come with practice.

But he did manage to turn a Rotten Belle into an SPA on turn two much to Seamus' annoyance (grrr lol)

Overall I think a single Rotten Belle should definately be added as his crew as Leveticus has a hard time moving places, so it would be great to have things come to him so he can focus on nuking them with spells.

After that though I'm a bit confused about what to get him for the 25ss level he is playing.

What I was wondering is, do you keep Rusty Alyce in when using someone like Ryle or Lazarus and so pay 16ss for two models, or do you think it should really be one or the other?

I was tempted with getting him to try this list:

Leveticus - 2ss

Hollow Waif

Rotten Belle - 4ss

Rusty Alyce - 8ss

Ryle / Lazarus - 8ss

Watcher - 3ss

It would be small, but the damage output would be staggering IMO.

I guess I'm most at a loss for what is Leveticus's goto cheap significant minion is i.e. Belles for Seamus, Death Marshalls for Lady J, Freikorpmann for Von Schill etc. Something that can go out and interact with objectives and not have to worry to much if it dies doing it.

That's why its such a shame SPA's dont become significant in groups lol. You could start or summon a few up and still keep rolling for objectives.

Edited March 23, 2013 by D-A-C

[Drool_bucket]

they do become significant in groups... it's called a Desolation Engine!!!

I think the list you gave above is a great start, I would use something like that myself.

See, for on-going objectives (ones you have to hold on to versus just run up and tag and can then leave) he doesn't need low SS minions cause he just kills the opposing crew and by turns 6-7 he may still only have 4-5 Significant models, but his opponent might only have 1 left.

I find with Ashes and Dust (which breaks into two significant as needed...) and a Watcher he has a lot of his "objective" grabbing needs covered... as much as Levi can cover them, after all, he is no Colette.

[His Fattness]

I really like large steampunk arachnids as a lower cost significant model. They've got armor, melee expert, a brutal trigger, a long charge range, and drop 3 scrap counters when they die. The only down side is you can only take 2 of them. Rotten belles are great as well. They let you move the enemy or Levi to where you need them to be.

[PokiePrawn]

One of the things that makes Levi so good is his 'bench' of models he can take. My opponent may know I am taking Levi, but is it a construct heavy crew, or undead? Am I taking a group of power punchers, or trixy movers.

It is a lot about personality. If he likes simple and bashy, get him a Rail Golum, Punk Zombies, Killjoy etc. If he likes movement, Watcher, Necropunks ect. Then there are the more comlex Jack Daw, Bet Noir, Ashes and Dust etc.

So many options!

[Vanilla_Dice]

Also don't forget to check out episode 19 of the aethervox for a rundown on all the intricacys of running the desolate one!

[Trevelyan]

I play Levi a lot, and have picked up a few useful tricks with his core crew which might be useful.

First of all, you are right that Levi needs to die, but he wants to do it on his own terms. As long as he has activated (and at least one waif is safe) he absolutely should feel comfortable throwing himself into harm's way. IDeally the potential harm that the enemy might inflict is irrelevent anyway since he either kills himself or else sits on 1 wound waiting to die at the end of the turn. But if a Levi player is trying to keep him safe for no particular reason, and hindering his options to do so then they are absolutely DOING IT WRONG!

Second thought, Levi isn't slow. He really isn't. His personal walk distance is a pathetic 3", but if you are relying on his walk to get Levi from place to place then you are DOING IT WRONG. Levi doesn't walk where he wants to be during a turn, he travels via Hollow Waif at the end of the turn to where he wants to be next turn. Ideally he appears in cover, then uses his free move to step into the open and unleash hell. The trick hinges on how ou use your Waifs. Pullmyfinger advocates putting one Waif ahead for movement and keeping another back for safety, but in practice you can often move both Waifs somewhere useful and frequently give them some cover while doing so. Obviously each table requires a different approach, but as a rule of thumb you should try to find two places where you would like to be next turn and send the waifs out accordingly. Trying to shut down one good advance option is easy for the opposing crew, but trying to shut down both can be a serious effort (if they are even able to try).

You don't need SPAs to be significant. Granted it would be useful if they were, and I caveat this advice heavily with the observation that it is very strategy dependant (some strategies you will need more significant models, but those are ethe ones where you don't take the SPAs to begin with), but the best use of SPAs is to hinder the enemy and not ad vance your own objectives. A core Levi crew plays llike the tide coming in, At the start he is often outnumbered and the enemy seems to have the run of the table. But each enemy minion turned into a SPA, or even left as a corpse/scrap counter for later use, is a swing not just away from the enemy but also towards Levi. If you can spend the first few turns preventing the enemy from scoring then you should have ample minions in the late game to score yourself, including turning the SPAs into the Desolation Engine to score (practically the only time I really bother).

If you do need some quick, cheap objective scorers then I would recommend the Watcher. For 3 points it is significant, fast, flies and is slow to die. Plus it drops delicious scrap when it falls.

Rusy Alyce has her uses, but whether you take her will depend on what other options you have and the specific strategies you are pursuing. Levi generally works well with a handful of more potent models rather than a large pool of cannon fodder, and Alyce has her place in that pool. She works well with both Levi and Ashes & Dust (A&D plus Alyce cost 21ss between them - not cheap but effective) and tends to earn her keep in my games. Personally I have little place for Ryle.

In case I didn't make it clear earlier, Levi really wants to have Ashes & Dust around as a crew option. Put A&D ahead of any other potential minion, then once you understand what A&D can do you can consider other options. Lazarus may be worth considering (I have him but have yet to see him in action, but he should synergise well with A&D, gaining Fast in the process). Killjoy (sacrifice Levi or a Waif for a "free" summons) and Jack Daw are other expensive but effective additions to the crew.

[iamthefly]

What would you say are the best beat sticks for Levi apart from A&D?

I've got A&D, Bête, Dead rider (who for some reason I just don't ever want to take with any master, just doesn't do it for me, shame), teddy, Bad juju, Rogue Necro. I've also got Jackdaw and a Hanged, but I wanna wreck face. Also got the Desolation engine of course.

I was looking at Arachnid swarm, Steamborg and Peacekeeper today. They all look like good fun. Is survivability an issue? Are we in the era of 'the only big construct worth taking is the rail golem'?

Cheers

[Lucidicide]

What would you say are the best beat sticks for Levi apart from A&D?

I've got A&D, Bête, Dead rider (who for some reason I just don't ever want to take with any master, just doesn't do it for me, shame), teddy, Bad juju, Rogue Necro. I've also got Jackdaw and a Hanged, but I wanna wreck face. Also got the Desolation engine of course.

I was looking at Arachnid swarm, Steamborg and Peacekeeper today. They all look like good fun. Is survivability an issue? Are we in the era of 'the only big construct worth taking is the rail golem'?

Cheers

You don't really need a particular beatstick for Leve because he himself is the best beatstick in the game. You can take models like the Dead Rider, yes, but it ends up being overkill without adding functionality.

If you genuinely just want to be in their face and pounding on them, you won't do better than A&D and the Desolation Engine. Start with the SPAs, and have the A&D warp up the 10" it can with Contort. Leveticus can move forward and turn the scrap counter (created by the A&D) into another SPA, which gives you extra movement to get your DE forward.

If you manage to get Rusty in the crew, you can give both A&D and the DE Reactivate. I have been in my opponent's deployment zone turn 1 attacking them with both models before. It's quite fun, although not particularly viable.

[Trevelyan]

You don't really need a particular beatstick for Leve because he himself is the best beatstick in the game. You can take models like the Dead Rider, yes, but it ends up being overkill without adding functionality.

This.

Levi doesn't struggle to kill things. The challenge for Levi is achieving other objectives.

I like A&D for his ability to cover a lot of ground and score points as much for his ability to kill things and turn their stuff into more SPAs, and if he was purely a killing machine then he wouldn't be as viable for the points. (fun tip - with A&D in the crew you can happily declare Break Through as a scheme and not have to worry about moving a modle up the table, just have A&D sacrifice itself in Turn 6, place the Dust Storm on a table edge near the opponant's deployment zone and just waltz in. By Turn 6 Levi is generally out-activiating other crews, assuming things have gone at least partially to plan, so you can frequently do this and leave the other guy no chance to respond, especially if your crew is generally away from his deployment zone and he doesn't see it coming).

What Levi ideally wants are minions who will provide more tactical options. His biggest weakness is finding mobile and significant minions in the early to mid-game, so something that can move, score and ideally either stick around or else provide raw material when it dies (scrap for SPAs, occasionally corpses for waifs) should be high on the list.

Alternatively, having Bete Noir and Killjoy pop out is just sick fun, and sometimes it is nice to take a Levi crew designed to do nothing more complex then tear the other guy a new one. Bete, Killjoy and Jack Daw isn't a particularly useful list, but is insanely good fun and practically guaranteed to make someone break down in tears.

[Hunter-thom]

Any tips for running Collodi with levi.... ? I really want to try him and the A&D in a list, how does this go?

[Joel]

basically, its stone light.

levi, 4ss

canine remains

collodi

4 marionettes

ashes and dust

its also two seperate teams - the collodi ball that can run around and do objectives for you and burns activations - and ashes and dust which is a battering ram - and combines with levi for more speed. the crew lacks the SPaboms to make the ashes and dust faster through contort, but these can be generated by levi during the game.

Its proved to be a successful crew, but I'm not going to recommend it as a starting place for levi!

[96p]

A&D loses way to much from not having Alyce around (6AP is plain sick) and with collodi you'll not have the SS to take her too.

[Hunter-thom]

What goes best with collodi? And on the other side what is the best A&d alyce list? I am just about to start with Levi this week I have most off the models anyone would use with him and i'm likely to be playing a game against Jacob's neverborn crew... I also have all the riders and a pretty big interest in his avatar. What are some alt list going around, my place style to date has revolved around melee heavy crews/Masters. Lillith and Hamelin (using his black staff to great effect and loving it)

[Lucidicide]

With Collodi, a friend always takes Rusty Alyce. Rusty and Leve are a team, and Collodi is a team unto himself. I've recently been taking Lazarus in my Collodi lists. It doesn't really matter, though, you can kill in those last points with whatever floats your boat. Leveticus and Collodi are both so powerful it doesn't really matter.

Honestly, I don't know what to tell you for melee heavy Leveticus. Look at his hiring pool. Take what you like. At the end of the day, this will lend itself to you having the most fun in the game. There aren't really right and wrong answers as soon as you want a theme (such as melee heavy or the riders). There's just fun and not fun.

[Trevelyan]

and ashes and dust which is a battering ram

While A&D can put some hurt out, I struggle to see him as a battering ram. Used as a blunt instrument without support A&D can drop quite easily and doesn't really provide you with full value for his ss cost. If all you want A&D for is a melee heavy then there are cheaper options.

[Vanilla_Dice]

For a melee centric slaughter/beat down list I've tried a big hitters list of leve, canine, Lazarus, rail golem and izamu.... Can work very well, has great damage output and a mass of survivability.

Have also used izamu as a tank in a collodi list, works well for things like line in the sand to hold dynamite, collodi flips them and then izamu comes in to protect them while leve supports from range nearby.

[Joel]

While A&D can put some hurt out, I struggle to see him as a battering ram. Used as a blunt instrument without support A&D can drop quite easily and doesn't really provide you with full value for his ss cost. If all you want A&D for is a melee heavy then there are cheaper options.

A battering ram swings in and out on its target - this is similar (in my head) to A&D hitting, breaking away, and hitting back in.

[Hunter-thom]

I have used A&D in a list with nico for a few laughs and to see a fast unit with a super CB (when under nicos buff) would go. And a battering ram is just how I would describe it.. There really is a whole lot of options with Levi, so i'm not surprised that I haven't had 12 people all saying take the same things..

I have never really used collodi so i'm thinking maybe i'll just take A&D, Rusty and some Dogs and maybe a rider for objectives and see how he plays before I take on levi and collodi together. I do have one question. when he dies and then returns the rules say discard your hand and redraw. does this mean you have to throw your whole hand and redraw no matter what or is it like the draw phase where you discard what you want and then redraw to your max hand size?

[Vanilla_Dice]

You have to discard your entire hand, which is during the close phase so it has not actually been shuffled yet, which can be a double edges sword depending on what kind of flips you've had throughout the turn.

[Hunter-thom]

so no use hanging onto good cards for future use.. Makes things very interesting. any tips for card management

[Vanilla_Dice]

There is not much card management, I think it's a blessing in disguise because it allows you to be rather reckless with your hand instead of saving things like the red joke for that magic moment that may not even come around.

With things like (0) deaths lessons and his disciplined caster trigger, there's not much need to hold onto cards or save them as you should have what you need or can manipulate to make it that way.

[Drool_bucket]

the one card management trick that I was taught involves The Watcher [Guild]. If you can activate it at the end of the round you get to check your next two cards... if you like one or both of them you put them on top. If not, you ditch them for a chance at two better ones.

Between Rusty Alyce, The Watcher, Disciplined Caster and Death's Lessons, I find Levi very good at having good cards in your control hand. It's keeping those cards that are impossible.

Another simple trick is when you death Lessons, put the best card second. (Best as in card you would like to have in hand for Levi or another model later in the turn) Then toss out whatever spell of Levi's that fits and snag the second card with Disciplined Caster.