Lost Love Summoning

[mathuclo]

This is a real quick question. The Lost Love is able to copy one of it's masters (1) spells. With a red joker he is able to use Kirai's summon spirit to meet the casting of 17. Here is where it gets tricky, as I want to summon a Onryo. The spell reads: sacrifice a spirit, inflict 2 wds on this model, summon one Onryo. Do I need to meet all aspects of this in the order listed in order to complete the spell. What I want to do is sacrifice the Lost Love (as a spirit) but then would him not being able to take the 2 wds stop the spell from being cast?

I only ask this, because it came up at a crucial point in the game where I ran out of steam and seishen.

Edited January 9, 2013 by mathuclo

[Aeschere]

I don't have the card but the way you put it down it says:

Do X then do Y then Resolve

So I would say you need to sacrifice another spirit and then take two wounds on The Lost Love.

[IntereoVivo]

I'm pretty sure it would prevent the spell. In addition, you have to place a summoned model within 6" of the summoning model. If your Lost Love isn't on the table you cannot place the Onryo.

Looking through the book now to see if I can support with a page number.

[Sarsnick]

I don't have the card but the way you put it down it says:

Do X then do Y then Resolve

So I would say you need to sacrifice another spirit and then take two wounds on The Lost Love.

Lost Love is a legal sacrifice target if he is casting. The spell says you sacrifice a friendly Spirit within 6", not "another" friendly Spirit.

The problem is the guy's dead when the summon effect comes around (ignoring the Wds for now). The rule says it must be entirely within 6" of the summoning model and he is no longer on the board.

Compare this to other rules that sacrifice themselves to summon other things like the Duet. It has the clause "Before the model is removed from play" which makes the spell able to summon things and sacrifice the summoning model*.

*I know the Duet replaces or places, but the "before" clause would be there even if it was summoning.

Edited January 9, 2013 by Sarsnick

[Envy]

I was under the impression that a model can not do any actions that kill it? Or is that just in regards to wd's?

[Aeschere]

Lost Love is a legal sacrifice target if he is casting. The spell says you sacrifice a friendly Spirit within 6", not "another" friendly Spirit.

The problem is the guy's dead when the summon effect comes around (ignoring the Wds for now). The rule says it must be entirely within 6" of the summoning model and he is no longer on the board.

Compare this to other rules that sacrifice themselves to summon other things like the Duet. It has the clause "Before the model is removed from play" which makes the spell able to summon things and sacrifice the summoning model*.

*I know the Duet replaces or places, but the "before" clause would be there even if it was summoning.

My post was trying to explain that he indeed cannot do it due to the fact that he will sacrifice himself and will not be able to place the summoned model within 6" of the casting model.

I ment to tell the OP that he needed to sacrifice another spirit model to make the spell work so that Lost Love could that the two wounds and then continue the summon.

So in short. No you cannot summon Onryo in the scenario you presented due to the fact that the summoning model is no longer present when you need to place the summoned model which is a requirement of summoning.

[Silas Cordell]

I was under the impression that a model can not do any actions that kill it? Or is that just in regards to wd's?

My understanding is that an action is only forbidden if it is guaranteed to inflict enough WDs to the model to kill it. Spells are always legal because you could fail the cast. Once the action has been declared, then the model may end up killing itself.

[Kadeton]

You can't attempt an action that inflicts a flat (i.e. not variable) number of Wd on the caster if those Wds would reduce the model to 0 Wd remaining. In this case, you wouldn't be able to attempt the spell if the Lost Love only had 2 Wd left.

[Math Mathonwy]

My understanding is that an action is only forbidden if it is guaranteed to inflict enough WDs to the model to kill it. Spells are always legal because you could fail the cast. Once the action has been declared, then the model may end up killing itself.

I don't think this is correct. The rule forbids actions that, if succesful, are guaranteed to inflict enough WDs. The fact that the action may fail is not enough uncertainty to the killing, though if it can be resisted, then that is enough. Causing a variable number of wounds is also enough if the minimum amount is not enough to kill. Not quite sure if the chance of getting a Black Joker is enough. Especially if Black Joker has already ended up in the discard or if the player has it in his hand...

[Silas Cordell]

You can't attempt an action that inflicts a flat (i.e. not variable) number of Wd on the caster if those Wds would reduce the model to 0 Wd remaining. In this case, you wouldn't be able to attempt the spell if the Lost Love only had 2 Wd left.

But since you don't choose which effect you want (ie, which spirit you'll summon) until after the spell is successfully cast, shouldn't you be able to cast it as long as you have more than 1 wd (the minimum required)?

---------- Post added at 08:43 AM ---------- Previous post was at 08:41 AM ----------

I don't think this is correct. The rule forbids actions that, if succesful, are guaranteed to inflict enough WDs. The fact that the action may fail is not enough uncertainty to the killing, though if it can be resisted, then that is enough. Causing a variable number of wounds is also enough if the minimum amount is not enough to kill. Not quite sure if the chance of getting a Black Joker is enough. Especially if Black Joker has already ended up in the discard or if the player has it in his hand...

Yeah, after checking the FAQ, I think you're right. I was thinking of the chance of resisting.

The Black Joker shouldn't ever effect this, because anything that causes a variable number of wds (when you could flip the BJ) is always legal.

[Math Mathonwy]

Yeah, after checking the FAQ, I think you're right. I was thinking of the chance of resisting.

The Black Joker shouldn't ever effect this, because anything that causes a variable number of wds (when you could flip the BJ) is always legal.

But you can't flip the BJ if it has already been flipped... Not that I actually believe that it should be taken into account, mind you.

[Kadeton]

But since you don't choose which effect you want (ie, which spirit you'll summon) until after the spell is successfully cast, shouldn't you be able to cast it as long as you have more than 1 wd (the minimum required)?

If you've only got 2 Wd left, you could cast the spell but you could only choose to summon a Gaki. (At least, that's how I'd play it. I'm not sure that it's a situation that the designers even considered. Still, I'd say the current "fizzle" rule covers this situation - completing the effect makes the spell against the rules, so it's cancelled. You could choose to summon the Gaki, or just lose the AP and achieve nothing.)

[Sarsnick]

My post was trying to explain that he indeed cannot do it due to the fact that he will sacrifice himself and will not be able to place the summoned model within 6" of the casting model.

I ment to tell the OP that he needed to sacrifice another spirit model to make the spell work so that Lost Love could that the two wounds and then continue the summon.

So in short. No you cannot summon Onryo in the scenario you presented due to the fact that the summoning model is no longer present when you need to place the summoned model which is a requirement of summoning.

I was actually agreeing with you. He can't summon because he won't be around to base the distance the summoned model will come into being.

[Silas Cordell]

But you can't flip the BJ if it has already been flipped... Not that I actually believe that it should be taken into account, mind you.

My point is that if you have to flip, the action will always be legal, as the number of wds is not fixed. Only actions that cause a fixed number of wounds become ineligible.

[Math Mathonwy]

My point is that if you have to flip, the action will always be legal, as the number of wds is not fixed. Only actions that cause a fixed number of wounds become ineligible.

Aye, you are correct. I was being unclear - I meant that last part as kind of a speculative thing, not a rule.