Rule Chains

[SW_Neverborn04]

Hi all. Malifaux is a great game that can cause some surprising chains/sequence of events where rules become open to interpretation. These events may even be game changing, so I'd like to see the communities view on this hypothetical question which although rare, may be fated:

Let's say it's Arcanists (Colette) vs Neverborn (Lilith). Say its turn 5, on a multileveled board, and the Arcanist crew has 5 soulstones, which showgirls tend to have an abudance of. Colette has already activated this turn, used Soulstone infusion for Artifical soulstone to reactivate later on. She has a friend nearby (your choice of minion) but it's eaten by a Mature Nephilim who uses Diving Assault (2) and it's melee expert to finish it off, placing it within 2 inches of the Master Showgirl. Colette also happens to be within melee range of a lilitu. For whatever reason(heavily contested shared objective for example) Colette doesnt reactivate as something (VP or positioning) seems more promising and another minion preforms its activation. Next, Lilith activates from a lower level and charges(which may not be the best idea given magician`s duel), as she ignores terrain when drawing LoS, and makes it, even with the ladder climb, as she`s 1.5inches away (in range, but not enough for black blood).

Now here is where the hypothetical and chains kicks in.

Lilith`s attack inflicts severe damage (6) which would kill Colette, however, Arcanist player tosses a soulstone to prevent damage. Unfortunatly, it`s a black joker and no wounds are prevented. Slow to die kicks in and player uses a soulstone to heal. They pull a moderate so that`s two wounds restored. Still, the Master showgirl is still within range of the Matures terrifying. Granted, slow to die does not count as an activation, but healing is an action(key word) which would end in the terrifying range(page 57 RM). Therefore after the heal, she`d have to make a morale duel. Sort of, `I`m dying, but I`m good` then turns her head and says `wtf is that? I should cheese it`. Now, still in the Slow to Die, she makes a morale duel, doesnt make it, cant cheat as the player has a band hand, but uses a soulstone in an attempt, though its a bad card, fails and has to fall back. This calls for falling back, and any disengaging action can be blocked by enemy models(pg 57 RM). Lets work backward with most range. The lilitu misses, but Lilith manages to stop her from running, and as she has wicked, it inflicts damage. Given how Liliths minimum damage is 3, and Colette currently has two, Lilith pulls a moderate worth 4, which would kill Colette, but Arcanist player uses another soulstone to block incoming damage. The result is a weak (1), but as no model can be reduced to negative wounds, Lilith`s moderate of 4 as oppossed to Colette`s 2 remaining would stand that she still survives, and has 1 wound left.`Lilith uses her fast action as another attack as regular attack is a genral action. The resulting duel ends with more damage, but the Arcanist player did not use a soulstone to prevent damage, nor was there a blinding flash trigger. They did however use a stone to heal 3 during this slow to die. Terrifying wouldnt kick in as Colette is falling back but was stopped by Lilith and would have to spend that Soulstone Infusion played earlier to Reactivate and Rally.

So that`s all. Would this chain be correct in how things are dealt with? Leaving the arcanist player with only 1ss, and hopefully the neverborn player being able to take initaitive and finish her in turn 6? Opinions? Thoughts?

[Ausplosions]

No.

Because you don't test for Terrifying in a StD.

And paragraphs. They can be nice.

[xeth1313]

"The result is a weak (1), but as no model can be reduced to negative wounds, Lilith`s moderate of 4 as oppossed to Colette`s 2 remaining would stand that she still survives, and has 1 wound left.`" Is that how that works? I would think that is was still 4 damage and the weak prevent would mean you have 3 wounds being dealt.

[SW_Neverborn04]

The Slow to die + healing + terrifying was the issue in the hypothetical

[i_was_like_you]

Fate or poor planning really pulled a number on Colette that time. Trading a 'stone for some cards to hold some tomes for Blinding Flash to avoid most of those shenanigans should certainly have been called for.

Yes, paragraphs are nice, but pointing it out to people looks worse on you than on the poster who neglected formatting, possibly due to typing via their phone or while in a hurry.

[psychocamel]

I'm with xeth on this one. Surely damage prevention is applied BEFORE the damage is dealt.

Therefore Colette would go "oh crap, 4 going my way" prevent 2 of it with her prevention flip, and then suffer the remaining two from Lilith thus reducing her to 0.

Edit: Wow, I must've had this thread open for an hour, didn't see the messages between.

Yes, paragraphs are nice, but pointing it out to people looks worse on you than on the poster who neglected formatting, possibly due to typing via their phone or while in a hurry.

Gonna have to disagree with you here. The phone excuse doesn't fly unless for some reason that phone doesn't have an enter key/button/alternative.

And Ausplosions didn't point it out in any kind of negative way. He just gave a tip for the future. It's a very important tip too, a lack of paragraphs can make things amazingly hard to read in comparison.

Edited December 12, 2012 by psychocamel
oops

[Mach_5]

I believe xeth is correct. Lilith inflicts 4Dg, which becomes 4Wd. The weak prevention flip brings it down by 1 to 3Wd, enough to bring Colette to 0Wd and kill her. If she were to Slow-to-Die Heal at this point then she must heal at least 1Wd (since the attack can't drop her below 0).

She would be required to test for Terrifying after the Slow to Die action, as one is required when you "End an Action in a Terrifying effect's range."

---------- Post added at 04:09 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:05 PM ----------

Generally speaking, if Colette were that close to death and getting attacked by anything that might kill her, she would simply let herself die and use the Slow to Die healing since it only fails on the black joker. Trying for a damage prevention flip that has a good chance of failing is just a wasted soulstone for her.

[SW_Neverborn04]

I can see that point psychocamel, but, damage dealt and prevention still doesn't allow for reducing to a negative. If I'm missing something in this hypothetical (which may be true) and this were to happen, and she fell to another 0 wounds during her slow to die activation, would that not make a new slow to die action in which she could heal at the cost of another soulstone?

[Mach_5]

Damage Prevention happens before the model "suffers" the wounds (rules manual pg 48). So Lilith inflicts 4Dg which becomes 4Wd. Damage Prevention reduces the Wd to 3Wd. Colette then suffers 3Wd and cannot be reduced below 0.

[SW_Neverborn04]

okay, Mach_5, if that's the case, and Colette is reduced to 0, would that allow her another slow to die action before Lilith takes her next fast/genral Ap action?

Granted this has never happened to anyone in game, just a hypothetical?

[Mach_5]

She gets to make one slow-to-die action each time she gets killed, so yes. In this case:

Lilith's original attack -> Colette is reduced to 0, heals back to 2.

Colette Fails her Morale Duel and Falls Back.

Lilith makes a disengaging Strike that again reduces Colette to 0, who then heals back to 1.

If Lilith now attacks with Fast and reduces Colette to 0Wd again, Colette may again use Slow to Die to heal.

[SW_Neverborn04]

Thanks Mach_5. Was what we thought, in the group hypothetical, as we are casual gamers, but we all know those who are hardcore rule nazis and will twist any word to their advantage. Best we know ahead of time, and have a post from the community to call on it XD

[xeth1313]

Slow To Die should trigger every time she is reduced to 0 wds.

[SW_Neverborn04]

As it should from the manual, but some may claim that Slow to die can't activate during a slow to die action with the fallback and the wicked

[i_was_like_you]

Gonna have to disagree with you here. The phone excuse doesn't fly unless for some reason that phone doesn't have an enter key/button/alternative.

And Ausplosions didn't point it out in any kind of negative way. He just gave a tip for the future. It's a very important tip too, a lack of paragraphs can make things amazingly hard to read in comparison.

Maybe after seeing so many other negative quips of this fashion from Ausplosions, maybe I read into it. That and jumping on someone for formatting on their very first post, just brilliant. It's like having a Not Welcome mat on the front step of the forums.

[Ausplosions]

U mad Bro?

Edited December 12, 2012 by Ausplosions

[i_was_like_you]

Holy hyperbole, Batman. There were no bleeding eyes. It's not like it was that full block of text in Rathnard pink or anything.

[SW_Neverborn04]

Formatting aside, all this was meant for was a community interpertation on such a random event to bring in rule judgment. For those who are not put off from formatting, anything to add, validate, or bring up, for this, or any other weird chain for the community no matter how hypothetical it may be?

[Adran]

The Chain seems to work.

Lileth Attacks and kills Colette. In Collets slow to die she chooses to make a healing flip.

Its at leats 1 wound. Teh slow to die action ends, and she is healed therefore not dead.

Because she has just finished an action she must take the terryfying test and failes. She runs and Lileth stops her disengaging and killes her again with wicked.

Because she has already finished her last slow to die action this is a whole fresh death. So new slow to die action, fresh heal.

I can't think of any way for colette to take any more damage during her slow to die action if she is using it to heal.

If there was some way to hurt her during her slow to die heal action, then she might have to die.

The nearest I can think of is if she tried to cast her death defying spell and Perdidtas faster than you was active, but I think that that happens before she completes the casting of the spell, so wouldn't add fresh damage on Colette.

If A model had an ability that read "Before a model completes an action, it takes 1 wound", and colette used her slow to die action to heal, and only healed 1 wound, then before she finished her slow to die action she takes 1 wound, so at the end of her slow to die action she isn't above 0 wounds and would die.

The damage/wound would have to happen after the healing from the action, but before the end of the action to kill her. And I know of no ability in the game at the moment that could hurt in that section of the action.