Ten Thunders masters, what are they good for?

[pgbsamurai]

So after browsing the forums for the past couple of weeks I want to stimulate a little more discussion about the new Ten Thunder's masters.

I've got the Jacob crew assembled and painted, working on my Mei Feng crew now, and expecting my Misaki crew for Christmas. I really like the flavor of the new faction and was try do decide when I would run each master. I've only gotten in one game with Jakob's crew so far and am desperately waiting for Beckoners to be released.

So the question is, what strategies and schemes do you think the new Ten Thunders masters excel at, which do they struggle with?

Let's keep this discussion to running the new masters as Ten Thunders.

[Fetid Strumpet]

Nix's Podcast did a segment on this. If you are looking at competitive master selection (and I know you ) I think you are looking at this as the most competitive Master Choice for each Strat. Please keep in mind I'm not advocating that the other Master's can't do these strats, only what I consider the most optimal.

A Line in the sand: Lucas McCabe. His speed, ability to hinder the opponent, and swarm of cheap significant models make him the best choice I feel.

Claim Jump: Yan Lo. His ability the recycle some of the best models resser's have, in addition to turning into an avatar of destruction as models (not living or undead, models!) die means that when the dust settles his crew certainly has an edge in controlling a specific point.

Contain Power: Misaki. Misaki will kill the opposing master very effectively and then she will take on the opposing crew while her crew sips tea and cheers her on.

Deliver a Message: Misaki or Lucas. Misaki has potentially 4 AP and Lucas is a very fast model with a crew of fast models. Either will work well.

Destroy Evidence: Same reasons as above.

Distract: Misaki. Killing the opposing master is just as effective as actually distracting it and Misaki excels at killing an opposing master.

Escape and Survive: Uncertain, Potentially Jakob, as the Beckoners are somewhat quick and an absolute headache to remove from the board if the attacking model has brilliance. Past that I'd say Misaki. Her crew is quick and tricky, and with the right positioning Misaki will kill anything in the opposing crew while the rest of her crew runs, moves her around, and cheers.

Plant Evidence: Lucas, for the same reasons as mentioned in A Line in the Sand.

Reconnoiter: Lucas, for the same reasons as mentioned in A Line in the Sand.

Slaughter: Misaki. She excels at killing things.

Supply Wagon: Yan Lo, for the same Reasons listed in Claim Jump.

Treasure Hunt: Misaki or Lucas. Misaki Might Edge this one out simply because she herself can take up to 3 walk actions after grabbing the Treasure, and she doesn't have to walk to get there. Additionally she could just provide the gigantic threat to anything speedy the opponent runs up to try to grab the treasure.

Turf War: Misaki. She again excels in killing, and if she destroys the opponent's crew their won't be many models left to contest the turf war.

In a Ten Thunders format I don't rate Mei Feng very highly, mainly because she fulfills a similar role to Misaki, and Misaki does it better. That isn't to say that Mei Feng isn't a good master, I just think she shines more effectively in an Arcanist crew.

Jakob is an extremely flexible master and I could see him doing well as just about any of the starts, but he rarely if ever shines as the best master to take at any one of them I feel.

[dgraz]

I find it funny that Mei didn't make it into that list at all. Not that I don't agree....Misaki does it better in most cases. Mei is conceivably just as good for Deliver Message since she could Rail Walker in and Deliver, but in my last Deliver Message with Misaki, I just put Shadow on the enemy master with her and followed him around on turn 1, then turn 2 Delivered. The one before that, it was a Torakage in range of the master thanks to Shadow Stride at the end of turn 1....if you win initiative, that's that.

Mei really adds something to the Arcanists that they lack; a mobile, killy master.....Marcus and Colette are certainly mobile, but Mei hits harder.....Rasputina is very killy, but not very mobile, Ramos can be killy and mobile, but not until late game when he manifests....Mei is good from the start.

I think Fetid's list is pretty spot on. Many of them could compete well in strats that he didn't list as being the best choice.....like Misaki could easily do Plant Evidence, and Lucas could probably easily do Supply Wagon.....but those will come down to personal preference and the master that you feel most comfortable with.

Edited December 5, 2012 by dgraz
spelling

[pgbsamurai]

I've only played one game with Jakob, but he felt extremely slow. Granted this was playing with a less than optimized crew against a very fast crew. (Graves and Tannen were such a let down.)

I'm surprised Mei Feng didn't at least get in on Escape and Survive. Her access to hardy models that can self heal would seem to make her a shoe in for that Strat, on paper at least.

Edited December 5, 2012 by pgbsamurai
Grammar / spelling

[dgraz]

I'm surprised Mei Feng didn't at least get in on Escape and Survive. Her access to hardy models that can self heal would seem to make her a shoe in for that Strat, on paper at least.

It's not that she can't compete, just that someone else does it better. Yes, Mei's models can take the hit and heal and all that, but the best way is to avoid being hit in the first place. Misaki loaded up with Torakage excel at not being there when the sting comes.

[Fetid Strumpet]

I've played Jakob a lot, and in my lists speed isn't a problem. I run him solely as a Neverborn master as the idea of 10 Thunders as a faction doesn't appeal to me at all. If I got Misaki she is the only Master I would probably run as a dedicated 10 Thunders master.

I tend to run Jakob with the Darkness Starting, 1-2 Beckoners (I love Beckoners), the Twins, and 2 Tots.

[dgraz]

If I got Misaki she is the only Master I would probably run as a dedicated 10 Thunders master..

No probably about it, since that's the only faction she is .

I get what you're saying about the masters as faction.....I like Mei more as Arcanist, Jakob more as NB, Yan Lo more as a Rezzer, and Lucas more as Guild. However, in a tournament I could see picking 10T as my faction...since the masters are all so different, the opponent will never have even a hint of what is coming.

[Fetid Strumpet]

If i was playing against a 10 Thunder player in a tournament I'd just assume I was playing against Misaki, as I feel she is the strongest master overall that they could field.

[pgbsamurai]

When I first looked at the masters in the book I was looking at them as more as in their individual factions, but the more I look at 10T models and masters as a whole I see a lot of potential that I'd like to explore.

---------- Post added at 11:58 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:52 AM ----------

Although I also saw a lot of potential in Graves and after playing with him found he is sorely lacking in AP.

[Undisclosed]

I like Jakob Lynch for Treasure Hunt, since Jakob himself is handy at carrying the treasure. He won't be slowed by it and has 3AP to shift the Treasure Marker. It's also not hampering your crew in anyway since the Hungering Darkness can still go about its business and the rest of the crew functions as normal.

@pgbsamurai

I feel the same way with Graves. I feel he misses either an AP or an ability to heal him up (Like the one the Executioner has which would be awesome and very in theme i think). I still use him because he looks awesome though.

[Fetid Strumpet]

I don't like exposing Jakob by moving him that much into contention, added to the fact that if you utilize his best defense besides SS, his Squeel Trigger, he will drop the Treasure.

Graves sort of has the extra action Via Bars Closed but I agree. He's a sorta cross between a melee model and a control model and I'll take a superb example of either before I'll ever take a generalist. It's the main reason Lelu often takes his place in a NB list, and I agree with Nix, in a 10 Thunders list Kang or Otomo work better as a beat stick than Graves does.

[dgraz]

If i was playing against a 10 Thunder player in a tournament I'd just assume I was playing against Misaki, as I feel she is the strongest master overall that they could field.

Mei plays pretty similar to Misaki, but the others can all be pretty different. It really doesn't matter to me, I never create a crew based on my opponent....I create based on the job I need to do. I play my game and try to make the opponent play it too.

[Undisclosed]

I don't like exposing Jakob by moving him that much into contention, added to the fact that if you utilize his best defense besides SS, his Squeel Trigger, he will drop the Treasure.

Graves sort of has the extra action Via Bars Closed but I agree. He's a sorta cross between a melee model and a control model and I'll take a superb example of either before I'll ever take a generalist. It's the main reason Lelu often takes his place in a NB list, and I agree with Nix, in a 10 Thunders list Kang or Otomo work better as a beat stick than Graves does.

That's fair enough, i personally haven't had a problem so far in getting him the treasure and running away with it.

[FearLord]

Lynch has to be a strong contender for Slaughter - the Hungering Darkness is the perfect tool for scoring points without giving them away...

Torakage are available to all Ten Thunder masters, so I don't think its necessarily fair to give Misaki all of the credit for them, but she is a fantastic master in her own right, and does cover much of the same ground as Mei Feng...

Mei might not be the best at any Strategies, but she is something of a good all rounder - I'm not sure there is a single strategy that she can't compete at...

[dgraz]

Torakage are available to all Ten Thunder masters, so I don't think its necessarily fair to give Misaki all of the credit for them,

true, but they are best with her. With other masters they are taking up points that might be better spent on something that synergizes better with them.

[FearLord]

true, but they are best with her. With other masters they are taking up points that might be better spent on something that synergizes better with them.

Torakage synergise with any Ten Thunders models, so as long as you're running some, they synergise just fine - Torakage are probably the main advantage to running these masters as Ten Thunders, so 1 - 2 depending on the strategy seems like a pretty good idea...

[pgbsamurai]

I have to agree with Fearlord, Torakage do seem to work well with any of the 10T masters. Once they are released in two weeks I will be really excited to see how all of the masters play with them.

[nix]

On the Torekage, I would not agree completely. Yes, they are good with all the 10T masters because the 10T faction is what they need to trigger thier abilities. Aside from that, I think they are better with some masters than others.

In my opinion, Torekage work best with Misaki as they can target her whole crew. I think they will also work just as well with McCabe, as I expect his movement based shenanigan crew will be pretty heavily dual-faction. I would then place Jakob in the second place, as he has some use but not a ton from the Torekage. I am unsure how well they will synergise with Yan Lo, as many of his models are not 10T dual faction, but instead Ressers he can take with his hiring rules. If anything, he will either tie with Mei for third place or Mei will take third and he will take last.

I like the list that was posted earlier, although I think I would end up going Jakob/Huggy more often than Misaki for Contain Power. The largest challenge there is getting the final kill with Jakob, which swings me toward Misaki. If I am choosing to take Saving Face as a scheme, I would sway toward Jakob since Huggy can do a great job killing masters and still only get me 2VP, pushing me toward a successful Saving Face.

I also agree that Mei works better as an Arcanist add than a 10T add. I am not as convinced with Jakob being better as Neverborn. I have not felt a pinch at all using him as 10T, and he brings a lot to the table being able to pick up models from the rest of 10T.

[FearLord]

I am not as convinced with Jakob being better as Neverborn. I have not felt a pinch at all using him as 10T, and he brings a lot to the table being able to pick up models from the rest of 10T.

Yeah, I don't really see what the Neverborn can offer him that makes him so much better than as Ten Thunders - There are a few nice models to add, but the same is true when playing him with the Ten Thunders...

The benefits of running Torakage are more pronounced the more Ten Thunders models that you take, that is certainly true, but there is little stopping some of the masters from running heavy on those models - your Lynch lists have been full of Ten Thunder models, and I agree with you that McCabe lists are likely to be similar.

Whether Mei will run Ten Thunder heavy probably depends on whether you like Rail Workers or not - I know you don't, but I can easily see myself running something like:

Mei (7ss)

-Emberling

Rail Golem

Rail Worker

Rail Worker

Torakage

Clock Work Trap

Clock Work Trap

Clock Work Trap

Which should be more than enough TT models for the Torakage to have an impact...

Yan Lo has probably got the least synergy with them as you say, as he likes Undead (even if only for 'Transcend the Physical'), but it would still be possible to build a crew that uses them quite well...

[pgbsamurai]

Nix, what would you say are some of the key things that Mei Feng is missing when playing as a 10T versus as an Arcanist?

[dgraz]

Nix, what would you say are some of the key things that Mei Feng is missing when playing as a 10T versus as an Arcanist?

I don't think she is really missing anything, it's just that she is pretty similar to Misaki and Misaki is better at those things.

[Fetid Strumpet]

Agreed, they are both Hitter Masters with some movement tricky baked in. Misaki is a better Melee Hitter, in almost every instance I would rather face Mei than face Misaki. They both serve the same role and Misaki is better at it than Mei Feng. That isn't to say you couldn't play Mei Feng in a Strat Misaki is really good in. Mei would probably do pretty well, it's just from a mechanical standpoint if you want the best tool for the job then you go Misaki.

[nix]

Nix, what would you say are some of the key things that Mei Feng is missing when playing as a 10T versus as an Arcanist?

I think it comes down to utility in her overall model choices and schemes.

For example, as an arcanist Mei gets access to both Coryphee and the large spider. The Large spider is cheap (5ss), moves further and hits harder than both a 10T-Brother and a Rail Worker. In addition, its a construct for Rail Walker and has a 50mm base, making it an ideal rail walk target.

On the Coryphee, they are just good. When I then look at how well they can accomplish her master-specific scheme it becomes silly. The Coryphee and Duet have an abundance of (0) actions with which to place the counters. In addition, they are also constructs on larger bases, and incredibly survivable.

I then add in the faction specific schemes comparison. Sabotage and Power Ritual are better overall than Saving Face and Infiltrate Malifaux. If I build a Mei list using the Duet I can reliably accomplish both Sabotage and Alternate Path (I think thats her specific scheme) by the end of turn 2, and certainly by turn 3. That nets me 4 points that cannot be taken away, and its only really using a couple models so I have the rest of my crew to work on my primary strategy at the same time.

[FearLord]

On the Coryphee, they are just good. When I then look at how well they can accomplish her master-specific scheme it becomes silly. The Coryphee and Duet have an abundance of (0) actions with which to place the counters.

Do you mean that they can still do (0) actions and do her scheme? Because they still can only do one (0) interact a turn...

[nix]

Do you mean that they can still do (0) actions and do her scheme? Because they still can only do one (0) interact a turn...

I was thinking this scenario:

Coryphee #1 and #2 start on the line, 6 inches onto the board.

Choose a piece of terrain to sabotage just over the mid-point of the board.

1. Metal Gamin or other model drops a marker on the deployment line (first marker is board edge, second marker is now at 6 inches).
   
2. Coryphee #1 moved 7 inches, uses a (0) to drop the counter behind it (6 inches out), uses a (0) to gain soul dancer. Walk near the sabotage terrain.
   
3. Coryphee #2 jump to probablyl the back or side of #1, (0) drop the next counter, (1) dance together (end touching the terrain), (1) sabotage the terrain.
   

At the end of turn 1 I should have 3 counters dropped, be at the middle of the board, and have sabotaged my terrain. Turn 2 I can go a couple ways, either dancing apart and dropping the next 2 (to be 1 away from finishing the line) or just move forward to drop the markers.