Cancelling slow with fast: Can a rules marshall please clarify?

[tattyted]

This has caused some heated debate in a different thread, so thought I would ask a couple of questions simply and carefully.

1) If a model starts its activation with slow on it, can the model use reckless to cancel out the slow?

2) having cancelled out both the slow and fast is it right that the model is not affected by either and therefore that model can then gain fast (or indeed slow) later in the turn through a different effect (i.e. not using reckless twice)?

I am aware that Ratty said this could be done in a clarification in a thread a year and a half ago, however I have also been told that since the thread predates the recent errata/FAQs it carries no weight. I cannot find anything in the errata or FAQ that replaces it. So question 3;

3) Are clarifications issued before the errata/FAQs now null and void if they are not mentioned in the errata?

Grateful if a rules marshall could give a determination.:Confused_Puppet:

[Omenbringer]

Reckless is a (+1) Action Modifier which means it can only be used once in an activation. So no giving it Fast to cancel Slow, then using it again to gain Fast.

It is a Action Modifier however it doesn't state anywhere in the rules cited above that an Action Modifier can only be used once during an activation. The verbage is that;

Action modifiers with the same name do not stack.

This is a very important difference. A model with Fast or one of the specific AP action modifiers (Melee Expert, Ranged Expert etc) can never have two instances of the same named Action Modifier since they dont "stack" (i.e. you can never have 2 instances of Fast on a model, either the model has it or it doesn't). Reckless is very different in that it can provide Fast (optional during model activation) to cancel out Slow and once used (giving the model Fast) both effects cancel out and are removed from the model. Now that the model is no longer affected by Fast (or Slow), the model is free to use the ability again to provide Fast.

Now if the model was unaffected by Slow then it could only use Reckless once (to gain Fast) since it would already have one instance of Fast present on the model (if it tried to do it a second time).

*Of note this only applies to giving a model access to the Fast Action Modifier via Reckless, it does not answer the other question of if the model can use Reckless multiple times to incur damage (which I dont believe it can).

I was with you up until i read the FAQ that specifies paralyzed as an effect.

Q. Can you clarify what an effect is?

A. An effect meets all of the following criteria:

It is generated during an Encounter

It sits 'on' a model

Paralyzed sits on the model which is Paralyzed.

Conduit sits on the Voodoo Doll.

Nurse's Massive Dose sits on the target of the Spell.

....

Paralyzed is a type of effect (called an Action Modifier). It is very similar however also different. Worth noting is that the verbage from the FAQ that you have cited is omitted from the 1.5 version of the Base book (with a red stamp next to it that says "Official Errata Guild Approved) on page 22 under Game Effects. In terms of precedence the 1.5 version is "newer" than the FAQ.

Regardless though it is a moot point and a very bad example since a model with access to Shrug Off will be incapable of using it to cancel Paralyzed since in order to resolve the Paralyzed the model doesn't get an activation at all (and Shrug Off is a Rg: C spell).

This doesn't answer the interaction of Shrug Off and Slow but I am reasonably confident that (due to the rules cited in my posts from the newest source available) it wont remove it (for the record I dont really care one way or the other).

Lastly, it is probably time for a Rules Marshal to come in and confirm one way or the other.

Edited October 10, 2012 by Omenbringer

[Fading Memory]

It is a Action Modifier however it doesn't state anywhere in the rules cited above that an Action Modifier can only be used once during an activation. The verbage is that;

As stated in the resolved rules thread

Q. Can I use a (+1) Action more than once per activation?

A: No. Although (+1) Abilities are listed in Actions for player convenience, they are Abilities, not Actions and therefore cannot be performed multiple times in an Activation. Reckless, for example, cannot be performed more than once in the model's activation.

Here's the link to the resolved rules thread http://www.wyrd-games.net/showthread.php?33856-Resolved-Issues

Edited October 11, 2012 by Fading Memory

[Ausplosions]

Ta da!

[Omenbringer]

Thank you for the link Fading Memory, that clears up the multiple Reckless question (This really should have made it into the 1.5 edition as I know it has been asked at least once in the past (back around Rising Powers), though of course I cant find the damn thread now. Also seem to remember in that thread that it showed it being used exactly like I laid out).

Oh well another thread to follow for Rulings, to compare to the 1.5 book, and the online FAQ/Errata/Model Clarifications on the Malifaux: Bad Things Happen site.

[Omenbringer]

Was thinking more about this last night after posting and I think they need to add some more meat to that resolved rulings post in regards to (+1) Actions (such as Reckless).

Taken in a vacum it is pretty clear, these abilities can only be used once per activation (i.e. so no using Reckless multiple times to damage your Bayou Gremlins or giving multiple instances of Fast or multiple specific AP via things like Melee expert) however there are some other subtle interactions here in regards to canceling Slow that should probably be spelled out clearly so there is no wiggle room.

Keep in mind this is not specific to just Reckless.

The timing of the "canceling and removing" of Slow with abilities that provide Fast has a couple second and third order effects. For instance since a model can't be effected by both Slow and Fast at the same time (page 33 of the 1.5 edition) and you aren't affected by either until the start of the models activation (when General AP is deteremined, page 32 of the same book), a model that was affected by Slow can never have more than 2 General AP. Also since these are abilities (that are just listed under actions) this implies they aren't optional anymore (granted no big surprise for Fast or Melee Expert but detrimental for Reckless which would now lead to a sort of "Death Clock" for the models with it even if they passed). Both of these are contrary to older rulings.

As an example of the first bit:

Bete Noir hits Lilith with a melee strike while under the effects of Mutilate giving her Slow. Even if Lilith hired a Student of Conflict and it went before her and used the All action Assist, it would do no good for her since she already has Fast as an ability and cant recieve another instance of Fast.

To re-itirate I dont particularly care one way or the other just looking to confirm:

1. The exact timing of the cancelation of Slow by Fast.
   
2. That Slow can not be canceled outside of a models activation (meaning a model with Fast printed as an ability on his card can not use another models ability, a trigger, or game effect to grant Fast and cancel Slow outside of there activation then use their Fast ability during their activation).
   
3. That Reckless is still 100% voluntary and not mandatory.

As an additional note, the distinction as an ability vice an action also means these definately can't be removed by Shrug Off now either.

Edited October 11, 2012 by Omenbringer

[gonzo917]

So Perdita's spell breaker cannot remove Slow or Paralyzed?

[dgraz]

So Perdita's spell breaker cannot remove Slow or Paralyzed?

As far as I know, per the Clarification document, Slow, Paralyzed, Fast, and Reactivate are all still Effects....prior to the model's activation when they are resolved. Therefore, Spellbreaker and Dispel Magic would be able to remove them.

[Omenbringer]

As far as I know, per the Clarification document, Slow, Paralyzed, Fast, and Reactivate are all still Effects....prior to the model's activation when they are resolved. Therefore, Spellbreaker and Dispel Magic would be able to remove them.

Kind of funny how the "clarification document" isn't really in this circumstance. The inconsistent verbage and examples amongst the source docs (The 1.5 edition, the FAQ/ Errata/ Model Clarifications sheets, and the new Resolved Rules Thread) all lending to the problem.