Yan Lo tactical discussion, getting the ball rolling

[DeleteAccount]

Finally got my book and been reading the new resser toys with special interest placed in ol Yan Lo.

Please, people that have actually used him, please post your lists and ideas.

Anyway, Theoryfauxing I'm expecting to blow 3 cache for chi, where is the part I'm not so sure of because level 2 of any of the trees is tempting, be it for what it gives (level 2 ash for +2 def) or of things to come (becoming spirit at level 3 of Spirit). Bone seems like the one I'd focus the least as a starting repository, but will probably be putting points into it either from the get go if I go level 2 Ash or after I can at least be a spirit by going through spirit.

List wise and ancestor wise I'm thinking of taking 2 ancestors, mostly Toshiro, with Chiaki and Izami coming and going about. Yin I'm not seeing as clearly in Yan Lo lists, though she screams Seamus to me. Troop wise, specially if going the way of Toshiro, a couple of ashigaru and a punk seem obvious enough, and the totem is specially useful if using Izamu, but after that I'm drawing a bit of a blank. Be it bringing a belle to the table, an Onryo to take away resists to Lo's offensive spell or just dogs and desperate mercs to beef up numbers.

Play wise, he seems to be interesting to activate first simply to get the spirit buff going and since he is mostly a ranged player he can pull this off to a degree, though of course it will vary on a turn by turn basis. His offensive spell can hurt a lot if played well and most important of all, is he main chi factory for Lo. The heal is the "nothing better to do with casting expert" spell and the resurrection is mostly there in case things start going south, though I'd rather bank on the ressilience from spirit letting me not need to cast it much.

His personal scheme seems pretty easy to do too, so if playing with master specific schemes, seems like a winner (get Lo to level 4 of a path and have had at least 2 relics on him during the match).

Lets see what you classy people think.

[Ausplosions]

Pretty much go it mate.

I'd say to remember that Izamu Does not successfully need to defend in order to stop the enemy's triggers.

So he is great for shutting down trigger-heavy models.

[Tokaji]

The list I'm most eager to try is actually an Ancestor list. At 35 stones, it would be Yan, Porter, Chiaki, Toshi, Izamu, and Yin. This would lead to 7 stones, with 3 for the paths and 4 for Lo. I actually can't see taking Lo without Yin. She's a huge tool in his shed, and if she dies, Lo gets terrifying, wicked, and anathema. Can't get much better than that.

I'm actually not particularly impressed with the Ashigaru on paper, and would much rather take Night Terrors in most of those situations where smaller models were needed. I would use them, however, if it were a 'battle for the pass' type of terrain, where you can just line them up and have them defend using their 0 action wall of steel with Toshi, Chiaki, and Lo to back them up, but that's still a very situational kind of thing.

[osoi]

Before dismissing the Ashigaru play some games with them. They are right up there with Rotten Belles for usefulness and utility, they are a great 4ss model

[Tokaji]

Oh, I haven't dismissed them, I was just saying that on paper, they don't look spectacular. I'd have to play with them a few times to see how they perform before I entirely dismiss them.

[DeleteAccount]

With Toshiro, the ashigaru just seem too obvious, I mean, it's a cb 6 with effective paired wall of steel that keeps everything out and lets you punch people like you want.

The full ancestor list is what I'm not feeling, you depende 100% on enemies to get chi except from the soul porter, Toshiro is mostly wasted till izamu and Penny manage to get him reckoning tokens and it feels like a pretty disjointed list that isn't really sure what it wants to do. I do admit the moment you get the 4 relics on Lo, his ranged attack is death on wheels, but then it's Lo vs the world.

As for Yin with Yan Lo, the only real interaction I see between them is that Penny debuffs WP a bit to help Yan Lo hit with his spell, but it seems limited in scope to me. Though I'll admit that Yin is the piece I'm having the hardest time wrapping my head around.

One thing I've noticed though is that a lot of the yummy spells are suit dependant with a highish cast. Chiaki's move spell should not be too problematic since we don't do rams much, but Penny needs a 9 crow to make something anathema and Seamus certainly doesn't like that.

[Kadeton]

One thing I've noticed though is that a lot of the yummy spells are suit dependant with a highish cast. Chiaki's move spell should not be too problematic since we don't do rams much, but Penny needs a 9 crow to make something anathema and Seamus certainly doesn't like that.

Yeah, this. Yin with Seamus seems like it's simply too crow-hungry to work well. Yin with Avatar Seamus, on the other hand, seems boss as hell. I would also like to try Yin in a Molly list to see if it makes Molly more viable.

I struggle to get my head around Toshiro from reading his card. His summoning abilities work in a weird way. I think I'd need to play some games with him to see how he could be best used, other than just buffing people.

[DeleteAccount]

Toshiro actually seems the most strightforward after Izamu for me. Though I consider that you at least need 2 of his posse to make him compelling, which ups his cost when used outside of a Yan Lo crew as a Ten Thunders master or makes him monopolize part of the list in a resser master. But he brings such nice speed and attack buffs along with his summoning shennanigans that he just seems like a solid support choice in most lists even if you don't pander to him. Really need to test him out though.

[Joel]

I've faced the skeletons and the armour recently. The skeletons are great for 4 points! They are plenty nasty and quick. The armour was, however, unimpressive and I'd have been much more concerned to see a dead rider on the table. He's not quick and although he can hit hard and be resilient (my opponent linked a grave spirit to him), that's not enough for 10SS in my book.

[DeleteAccount]

My experiences with Izamu have been excentric, being red jokered both times into oblivion. His trigger killer ability is fantastic, though not having a ram to screw all of lady J's triggers is distressing to say the least. As for the speed issue, Chiaki, Toshiro and the soul porter all help there. But yeah, Dead Rider and him is really a choice thing. I just really like having severe since that's a lot of minions that die outright to one of his swings.

[96p]

I think toshiro makes for a decent melee support model. Teki o juden + the soul porters empower ancestor should make him fast enough to get some hits... its not much but together with his incredible buffing abilities he seems to be a very solid choice for Yan Lo and maybe for Nicodem too.

[rancor709]

Izamu i really prefer if im running yan 10t or if ridermakes less sense. Izamu offers superior board control if you have a way to heal him. Otherwise rider is more survivable. With yans ancestor healing or bouncing decay off someone on izamu. Izamu can take a punch or two but the rider is more self sufficient.

[Dumb Luck]

I played against the Ashigaru block with a Pig Som'er list and I couldn't land a blow. Kept popping Wall of Steel, all the Piglets bounced. The list is suprsingly quick too.

[rancor709]

Toshiro & chiaki are nicodems new best friends. Toshiro providing some strong support as well as the niece adding additional healing and being able to remove slow on summons makes his avatar even more appealing.

[Tokaji]

With Toshiro, the ashigaru just seem too obvious, I mean, it's a cb 6 with effective paired wall of steel that keeps everything out and lets you punch people like you want.

CB 5. I'm not saying I can't see the use, I just don't see them being always useful. I would use these guys as objective sitters, but then you're relying on being able to activate first and get off the Wall before something comes in. Yin is by far superior because not only is she a perfect objective sitter, but she debuffs, and is generally very hard to kill. If you have Night Terrors with her, it's even worse.

The full ancestor list is what I'm not feeling, you depende 100% on enemies to get chi except from the soul porter, Toshiro is mostly wasted till izamu and Penny manage to get him reckoning tokens and it feels like a pretty disjointed list that isn't really sure what it wants to do. I do admit the moment you get the 4 relics on Lo, his ranged attack is death on wheels, but then it's Lo vs the world.

As for Yin with Yan Lo, the only real interaction I see between them is that Penny debuffs WP a bit to help Yan Lo hit with his spell, but it seems limited in scope to me. Though I'll admit that Yin is the piece I'm having the hardest time wrapping my head around.

I don't see a huge problem with just getting chi from enemies. The point is to kill the enemy anyway, usually, and I'd rather have something that helps me achieve that goal than just a sacrificial body. I don't see that big of an issue with Toshi, either. With his buffs, Penny and Izzy are going to be supplying him with plenty of tokens soon enough. Then Toshi can summon something to help out and it will compound. Like I said above, I can't think of a list that I wouldn't take Yin in. Any attack (read: almost ANYTHING that targets her) has a negative on her, plus she's debuffing and has fairly decent attack power. I don't see the problem.

One thing I've noticed though is that a lot of the yummy spells are suit dependant with a highish cast. Chiaki's move spell should not be too problematic since we don't do rams much, but Penny needs a 9 crow to make something anathema and Seamus certainly doesn't like that.

I completely agree with this, but fortunately, Yan won't be summoning much, so the crows can be a little more easily spread out within the crew. Chiaki's movement spell will be fairly easy, the the spirit cast on Yan isn't terrible with a tome, and a lot of the other suited spells I won't be casting that often, I don't think. Even Yin's spells that need an extra suit won't be cast that often, as she's the only one in the crew with terrifying, and the 0 spell only needs a low mask, and that's not bad.

Overall, I can see using the Wall of Steel list against anything that isn't heavy ranged, when you have a strategy that requires strategic defense of an objective or something. Surround a Supply Wagon with those things and it'd be pretty well protected.

[DeleteAccount]

Keep in mind that ashigaru most times will be cb 6 since they get +1 cb when 3" from an ancestor. Wall of steel is an amazing deterrent tool that will demand blowing cards on it since we are talking 2 cards cb 6 here, hell, even a vik or lady J will have to blow a card or stones to get in there. God forbid you actually manage to set a 2 ashigaru perimeter. If things come at them before they get to put the wall up, well, they hit decently enough for the cost and can do some of their short charges if the opportunity presents itself.

As for Penny, keep in mind her immunity is to attack flips, her ability does jack vs casting flips, so magic can screw with her with no problem. Also, as a dissuasion, she is pretty tame, effective terror 13 I doubt will be as effective as buffed ashigaru to keep things out, simply because at the end of the day, it's 2 dangerous things that need to go through to make a mess, and a standard wp 6 from something brawly tends to pass the morale test on average and should have cards in hand to not have to cheat too high. Yes, you can do a wp debuff screen, but night terrors demand another highish crow, her own spell demands something kicks the shins of the wp of those models to start doing it's job and so on. I really have to insist that I'm just not seeing much synergy between her and Lo. Maybe your testing will prove me wrong.

As for Toshiro, he is a pretty mediocre brawler for his cost (a punk zombie without paired and flurry) and having only 2 models that can be buffed seems like a huge letdown. He also isn't the hardest model to take down out there, a turn or two of pressure and he is down for the count and forcing Yan Lo to rethink his options. He does seem to get reckoning tokens from his own attacks which is nice though, but if I'm not going to include his usual babies with him, I'd rather go with more numerous minions (tempted to give it a go with Kirai and have a spirit hoard with the + to attack and Chiaki removing those slows).

Card wise you're probably right, but it's still a thing to keep in mind, god knows it's not the first time I've had to live a couple of turns with Kirai with no masks in hand for example.

[Tokaji]

Keep in mind that ashigaru most times will be cb 6 since they get +1 cb when 3" from an ancestor. Wall of steel is an amazing deterrent tool that will demand blowing cards on it since we are talking 2 cards cb 6 here, hell, even a vik or lady J will have to blow a card or stones to get in there. God forbid you actually manage to set a 2 ashigaru perimeter. If things come at them before they get to put the wall up, well, they hit decently enough for the cost and can do some of their short charges if the opportunity presents itself.

Forgot about that part.

As for Penny, keep in mind her immunity is to attack flips, her ability does jack vs casting flips, so magic can screw with her with no problem. Also, as a dissuasion, she is pretty tame, effective terror 13 I doubt will be as effective as buffed ashigaru to keep things out, simply because at the end of the day, it's 2 dangerous things that need to go through to make a mess, and a standard wp 6 from something brawly tends to pass the morale test on average and should have cards in hand to not have to cheat too high. Yes, you can do a wp debuff screen, but night terrors demand another highish crow, her own spell demands something kicks the shins of the wp of those models to start doing it's job and so on. I really have to insist that I'm just not seeing much synergy between her and Lo. Maybe your testing will prove me wrong.

If you look at the definition of 'Attack' in the rulebook (pg 18 in the small one), it defines it, basically, as anything that requires an opposed dual. Penny's ability doesn't specify casting or melee, etc, so it just applies to attacks in general, which is basically everything (unless of course I'm missing something). And as for synergy, I just personally find Lo's spell Weight of the Ages a better early-mid game ranged attack than the gun, so anything that will help him get that off is something I want.

As for Toshiro, he is a pretty mediocre brawler for his cost (a punk zombie without paired and flurry) and having only 2 models that can be buffed seems like a huge letdown. He also isn't the hardest model to take down out there, a turn or two of pressure and he is down for the count and forcing Yan Lo to rethink his options. He does seem to get reckoning tokens from his own attacks which is nice though, but if I'm not going to include his usual babies with him, I'd rather go with more numerous minions (tempted to give it a go with Kirai and have a spirit hoard with the + to attack and Chiaki removing those slows).

Card wise you're probably right, but it's still a thing to keep in mind, god knows it's not the first time I've had to live a couple of turns with Kirai with no masks in hand for example.

I'm still not 100% on Toshi either, but I can see his usefulness overall. Really, only time will tell. I've gone an entire game with McM without a crow in my hand. It was pretty rough.

Edited October 3, 2012 by Tokaji

[DeleteAccount]

If I'm not getting my rules wrong, an Attack and an Attack Flip are different game terms. In page 42 of the small book it starts talking about attack flips. On page 52 on the other hand you can see that when you draw a card to cast a spell you are doing a Casting Flip.

This thread should clear it anyway

http://www.wyrd-games.net/showthread.php?33474-Attacks-and-Defense-flips&highlight=attack+flip

[dgraz]

If you look at the definition of 'Attack' in the rulebook (pg 18 in the small one), it defines it, basically, as anything that requires an opposed dual. Penny's ability doesn't specify casting or melee, etc, so it just applies to attacks in general, which is basically everything (unless of course I'm missing something).

That's the 'attack' vs 'Attack' wording issue. In this case, it is a from Strikes specifically. So it doesn't affect all spells.

[Fancy.freddy]

Try running Yan Lo , 2 x desperate mercs,datsu ba,toshiro,Izamu and soul Porter.

[DeleteAccount]

Oh nice, idea, try to make Onryo at a discount while giving Lo a couple of Chi.

[Ausplosions]

Attack Flips are only generated by Weapon Strikes. Even and spells do not generate Attack Flips.

All Attack Flips are Attacks, but not all attacks generate Attack Flips.

[DeleteAccount]

Well, had my first game with the old bastard.

List I used was Izamu, Toshiro, Chiaki, 2 ashigaru and the soul porter. At the start I used 3 stones to get chi all of it in spirit tree (so could fly and move more from the get go) though that left me an anemic 4 soulstone pool. Conclusions are that resurrecting ancestors is huge, Izamu was death incarnate when you can bring him back, he brought death to the table, no questions asked, him also screwing with triggers is soooo good. Toshiro was the MVP, he's attack buff his huge, his mobility 0 action is fantastic and though I never had a decent crow to raise anything, I had accumulated a total of 8 recknoning tokens and only 2 of those were from a dead ashigaru.

Chiaki was dead weight, but I was facing a living crew that didn't use special effects or tokens (Lady J with only 2 watchers as non living), so she only really served to remove slow from izamu once after summoning him, to heal a bit of my guys and well, it wasn't against a crew where she becomes a force. Didn't really feel the need to do her "movement shenanigans" since there wasn't much point to it leaving my guys asking to be punched, I already noticed that thanks to the soul porter, an ancestor can just skate all over the table.

Soul porter did it's job and lived with borrowed time like a champ. The ashigaru are solid pieces and they did their purpose in the form of dissuasion.

At the end of the match, Yan Lo had gained Chi to max out spirit and be 2 Chi low to finish bone, so it can be done, but my opponents crew was very numerous. Yan Lo himself abused the mobility from spirit and just went where needed but always keeping a close formation with his buddies to be able to catch relics or chi without fear of being out. I did notice that my closed formation which made me strong today would be a huge problem vs Sonnia for example. Also, the biggest blackhorse that Yan Lo is packing is actually his companion ancestors, let me activate soul porter, Yan Lo and Izamu a couple of times to cause hell all over the place, in one of those being able to cast spirit on my undead AND vengeance of the Yomi which was plain brutal. My opponent mostly had stable cards, but got black jokered 3 times and Lady J screwed up a couple of riposte's that left Izamu living on borrowed time, but stil was evenish enough to get a decent idea.

He does have a few catch 22 situations that can happen if not careful. If you make all your guys spirits, yes, they are harder, but if they die, no corpses. If Chiaki makes your guys not be undead anymore, it also means Toshiro can't get Reckoning tokens either and he can't use his move action unless they are also spirits. Wasn't really a problem during my match, but it's important to keep it there.

He still seems like a fantastic addition and now that I did what I suppose would be a pretty vanilla list, I'll try him out with more standard resser choices (was really missing a belle somewhere in there) and using ancestors in other places.

[rancor709]

That configuration is my favorite and really can be a beastiee ball of speedy death. Izamu is yans bff. Did u in that game get to use weight of ages. In that configuration niece s value comed fro being an ancestor and forcing up weight of ages damage.

Edited October 12, 2012 by rancor709

[DeleteAccount]

Barely used the spell actually, did it once to trigger kill the judge to get 2 chi, failled to even cast against a witchling since I didn't consider it important and the other moment I actually wanted to hurt people with it was an immune to influence watcher, so didn't get much use of the ancestral based abilities. At one moment I could have shot with a relic on Lo, but I decided to punch people with the buffed stick instead, though it would have been smarter to shoot and keep it cool.